Mel: [00:00:00] If you work in communications, marketing, PR, change, chances are someone in your organisation has now said, "I'll just get AI to do that." And it's a fair thing to try, and it raises a big question for those of us who do this work for a living: where does human skills still matter?

And that's what this episode is all about, and I cannot think of a better person to explore it with than Kate Toon. Kate is an award-winning business mentor and digital marketing coach. She's a down-to-earth human on a mission to demystify the realities of running a successful online business. Her Stay Tooned group of companies include the Digital Marketing Collective, the Recipe for SEO Success, the Clever Copywriting School, and the Umina Beach Book Nook.

Now, Kate's helped more than 20,000 other businesses demystify digital marketing, grapple the Google beast, and find their own version of success. Kate is a renowned speaker, podcaster, and author, and multi-award winner. [00:01:00] On top of this, Kate hosts three podcasts, speaks at events around the world, and is learning to roller skate.

In our conversation today, Kate shares what she thinks will keep skilled professionals in work in an AI world. She also shares her practical tips for getting started with AI, and why she thinks selling is really about explaining, not pushing. We also talk about her latest book, Six Figures in Sales, and why she would never let AI write her books.

So let's get into it. Without further ado, here's Kate

Kate Toon, welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter.

Kate: I'm very happy to be here, thanks for having me.

Mel: Oh, I am very excited to have you on the show. I am a longtime follower. Uh, but before we get stuck into our conversation today, for our listeners who may not know much about you, can you tell us a little bit about who you are?

What do you do? How did you come to develop your expertise in this space?

Kate: So who am I? It's an existential crisis question.

Mel: It is, isn't it?

Kate: Um, these days I am a business mentor, so I help people with [00:02:00] marketing and Google and all that kind of stuff. Uh, and then a speaker, and I've written several books. But then the other side of me is that I own a bookshop in my local town, um, which has kind of consumed my entire life.

It started off as a little hobby, um, but uh, now it's my whole life. And I've really been in the advertising industry since I left university really, working at big agencies, um, and then moving into working on my own, uh, for the last 15 or so years, and then now doing all manner of different things.

Mel: Love it.

Mm. And I love that you own a bookshop, especially in an age of AI, which we'll talk about. Uh- Yes ... you know, we are seeing a lot more AI written books popping up on Amazon. Mm-hmm. I've been seeing some research around that, which makes me very sad. Um- Mm-hmm ... especially somebody who also just loves the physicality of holding a book too.

What are you finding, just off, off topic a little bit- Mm ... but in terms of customers coming to a bookstore, you know, are you still finding there's more, uh, people talking about, you know, [00:03:00] this, uh, this experience, I guess- Yes ... of having that bookstore there?

Kate: Yeah, I mean, you know, since I bought the bookshop a couple of years ago, we have doubled the revenue- Wow

uh, which is, you know, substantial. Um, and I think really people are craving reality, they're craving community. People are very lonely, disenfranchised, and there is something about going into a bookshop, it's quite magical. You know, the smell of it, the physicality of holding a book, uh, that people crave. I think older people enjoy it, young parents wanting to introduce their kids to the world of reading.

Um, so we're doing okay. You know, in a world of not just- Mm ... AI, but Amazon- Mm ... the fact that we survive, I think it's a lot about the space that we've created and the vibe. R- you know, people clearly know they can get the book for half the price on Amazon, but yet they come and buy it from us, so-

Mel: Oh, that's awesome

Kate: something going on there. Yeah.

Mel: There is, yes. And I have become one of those people. Actually I'd rather go to a bookstore than buy it from Amazon lately Anyway, you [00:04:00] talked about the fact that you've been in marketing, advertising, comms since the early days.

Kate: Mm.

Mel: What are some of the biggest changes that you've noticed in this sector in the last few years in particular?

Kate: Well, gosh, I was talking today about how I started pre-internet, so I remember the days where there was no email- Mm-hmm ... and we used to print out a memo and put it in an envelope and pass it round the office, and you signed the envelope when you'd read it. Crazy, right? Yeah. It's crazy.

Mel: I remember

Kate: that. Uh, so I'm ancient, so we're both ancient.

Yes. Look, I think in the last couple of years, obviously the biggest flick has been the in- you know, the advent of g- generic, uh, uh, sorry, generative AI. We've had AI around for ages if you've used the Hemingway App or- Mm ... any kind of app. You know, it's all, there's, uh, some element of artificial intelligence, and Google has been using AI to, you know, plow through all its search results for, for years.

But this generative AI, I think, is the biggest shift, um, and I think it's had, you know, you know, [00:05:00] massive impact on the marketing industry, on copywriters, on graphic designers, developers, and on businesses themselves. It's, it's both a blessing and a curse. Mm.

Mel: Mm. Yes, and, um, I've certainly seen that myself in some of the work I do with my clients, but also just the work I do.

Um, th- it's a real blessing in terms of productivity and just getting shit done, I guess. Mm-hmm. You know, there's all that sort of side of things. But the actual, uh, creativity side of things, certainly the research I've done, is people love using AI, but they hate receiving stuff that's been created by AI, and it's so obvious so many times, isn't it?

Kate: Yeah. I think- Look, I think for me, AI is a very useful tool. I'm not the best speller in the world, so I've been using AI proofreading tools for years. It helps me often structure things. You know, obviously it's there for the blank page, but I tend to not use it too much for the blank page because I do like to keep that muscle, uh- Mm

[00:06:00] moving. Um, in terms of design, I think, you know, we're seeing just a plethora of horrendous, uh, posters made with ChatGPT. But I, yet, if you use Canva, there's an AI function in there- Mm ... which is s- far superior, and you can edit it afterwards. You don't have to just prompt and prompt and prompt until you get what you want.

You can just suddenly go, "Look, I... It's easier for me to just fiddle with this graphic myself." Mm. So, um, I think, uh, and I think, you know, really good, people who are really good at using AI, you can't detect it. You can't. Mm. Um, and you know, you men- we mentioned before we started talking, or in the podcast, can't remember, about AI books and AI books coming down the pipeline and, you know, them, them being pumped out on Amazon, but there already were terrible books on Amazon- Yeah, that's true

that were just being pumped out by... You know, this is it. Like, now we can use ChatGPT to write our blog posts. Before that, we were using freelancers in Pakistan and paying them $6. So there's always been bad content and good content, it's just how it's being created has changed a little.

Mel: Mm. [00:07:00] So let's delve into that a little bit more because this is the million-dollar question- Mm for marketing and comms professionals. How is AI changing our jobs, and what do you think the future might look like?

Kate: Well, look, I, two years ago, had a big community of copywriters. I had over 250 copywriters in the community, and I kind of saw the writing on the wall with ChatGPT, and I closed that community down, um, before that came along.

Um, and I would say that probably 95% of the people who are in that community are no longer copywriters. Uh, just gone in-house or gone to do other jobs or working in marketing strategy or other things. But there are still copywriting jobs. I got- I've had two briefs this week sent to me, um, I'm kind of dipping back into copywriting, because even though the tool exists and even though it's relatively easy to use, people don't wanna use it.

I mean, th- there could be the most amazing vacuum cleaner in the world that does it in half the time, I still don't want to vacuum. I'd rather hire someone to [00:08:00] do it. I don't anymore, I do it myself, but- ... vacuuming was a bad example 'cause I love vacuuming. But do you know what? Just- It's very cathartic. Yeah, I real- it's so cathartic.

Just because something exists, just because it's good, doesn't mean people, A, know about it, B, know how to get the best out of it, or C, can be bothered. You know? I know I'm writing a presentation for a big brand, Invisalign, I'm doing a speaking gig for them, and, um, I know I could build that in Canva myself.

Uh, I could probably do it in, like, four hours. It's a big presentation, it'd take me a while, but I don't want to. Mm. So I've sent the brief to a graphic designer. Now, she may use Canva, I don't care. She may use whatever she wants. I don't care, I just want my presentation, but I don't want to do it. Mm-hmm. So I think the I don't want to do it factor will save us.

But... And also, you can, just because Canva exists, doesn't mean you have a design aesthetic. Mm. Doesn't mean you understand what goes with what, what font works with another font, or how the leading or kerning should be. So again, you know, just because a tool exists doesn't mean we know [00:09:00] how to use it.

Mel: Yeah, that's very true.

I do see a lot of people worried, uh, because they are seeing, I guess, in the bigger workplaces too, like those big corporates, you've got more and more people who aren't comms or marketing people who go, "You know what? I'll just get Copilot to write that email. I'll just get Copilot to do my comms plan for me"

Kate: Mm-hmm.

Mel: All well and good until the rubber hits the road And, uh, by then it, it might be too late. So when we're working with clients who sort of say to us, and, and again, from the copywriting perspective, you know- Mm ... "Well, that's ... I'll just get AI to do that now," what would you be saying to them?

Kate: I think I would say, "Good, have a go.

You know, it's there. Why not have a go? See what you come up with. Give it a try." You know, I wouldn't just be like, "Don't do it. AI copy is terrible" because it isn't. Yeah. It's pretty good, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, so I would never poo-poo it, and you don't want to be a Luddite, you know, like smashing the machines in the factory, 'cause it's happening anyway.

Mm. So we have to get on board. So I'd say, "Yeah, have a go, [00:10:00] and I can have a look over it afterwards." But I'd also say editing something that's already been created is a lot harder than just creating it correctly in the first place. So you may find it's more expensive for you to generate something and get me to fix it than it would've been- Mm

to just get me to do it in the first place. Um, but I think, you know, a lot of people have dabbled, they've played, and now they're coming back to traditional marketers because they realize it's, uh, it is harder than they think, and the copy does sound a bit weird. And they can't- Mm ... put their finger on what's not working in it, whereas you as a marketer go, "Well, I can see straight away why it's not working."

Yeah. So again, it's that, you know, there's a element of being a craftsperson and being able to see the problems that maybe people who are laypeople can't see. So- Mm. Yeah, I always would say have a go. I'd encourage it. It's ... AI is with us whether we like it or not. We've gotta jump on board. And, you know, you know, I'm a student of history.

We had the industrial, we had the agricultural revolution. People weren't happy about that. The [00:11:00] Industrial Revolution, and you know, everyone was like, "Everyone's gonna lose their jobs." Mm. And for a while there was a ruck. You know, a lot of hand-weaving people lost their jobs, but you know what? They found other jobs.

They got other jobs. Jobs, AI will generate jobs as well. It will create new opportunities. Um, yeah, I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

Mel: Mm. I agree. I, and I think too, what this can do for us is shift our value proposition beyond the doing and the, you know, the, the basic copywriting. The grunt work. The grunt work, yeah.

Yeah. And too, like when I think about the skills and mindsets that we need as marketing and communications professionals- The real skill is in that discernment and judgment. Like, AI can spit out this stuff, but, you know, it's that gut feel of I've seen this before, and I can see how this went wrong. Um, I know the audience, and I know this is not gonna fly with them, or it's that really innate skill that comes from just being a human being.

Kate: Yeah, I g- I absolutely agree. So it's the discernment, it's the [00:12:00] experience, it's the expertise. Um, but for me as well, it's also the relationship, and I think this brings it back to the bookshop. Mm. You know, why do people come into the bookshop? It's the experience of being with another human. Um, and honestly, if, if laypeople were so good at communicating that they could get such a great content out of ChatGPT, they wouldn't need us.

But the truth is they aren't great at communicating. You talk to some clients and say, "Well, how would you describe your brand?" And they go, "Professional." That's all they've got. You know, "What's the most important thing to your customers?" "I, I don't know." You know, "What do you want in your business? More money?"

You know, they don't have the answers. If they had the answers... And the thing is, with ChatGPT, you have to have the answer to the question- Mm ... before you can ask the question. You know, you have to be able to write the most articulate prompt that gets exactly, and express yourself so purely, otherwise you get crap.

And if people could do that in the first place, they wouldn't need us anyway. So yeah, that's what I'm finding. You know, you put rubbish into ChatGPT, you get rubbish out. [00:13:00] And a lot of- Mm ... I find, you know, many of the clients I've worked over the u- with over the years really struggle to fill out the copywriting brief, the brief to me.

Mel: Yes.

Kate: And they're like, "Well, if I knew how to fill out this brief, I wouldn't need you" And I'm like, "Exactly." Mm. And really all they're, all you're doing with ChatGPT is filling out a copywriting brief into ChatGPT. So yeah.

Mel: Yeah. It's a really good point, actually. Mm. Um, so for those people who are getting started with incorporating I- AI into their marketing work in particular, because there are some people who are leaps and bounds ahead.

You know, they've built agents, they're doing all the things, but there are others who understandably are still sort of dabbling. What are your top three to five tips for just getting started?

Kate: I think don't be afraid of it. Um, for me, I like to use a, uh, a tool called Magai or Magi, which is an all-in-one AI.

So it's got ChatGPT, Claude, all of them in one for one low price. So you can try all the different ones out, Perplexity, Claude. I think pick the right tool. So ChatGPT is really good for [00:14:00] generating content, but it's rubbish for providing sources. It provides- Mm ... no source material, so you don't know where it's getting the information from.

Perplexity is a lot better for providing sources. It'll provide 10 to 15 sources. So if you're writing an article and you wanna say, you know, "This statistic came from here"- Mm ... I'd be using that one. Claude is really great for code writing and, and for testing, checking other AI's work as well. So pick the right tool, don't be afraid, um, and just talk to it ironically like a human.

Mel: Mm.

Kate: So instead of sort of saying, "Write a brief about this, blah, blah, blah," say, "Hey, look, ChatGPT, I'm having a bad day, and I can't really think of how to write this sentence. I've kinda got this idea, and I've also had this thought, and I really like this website," put the URL in, "And then I found this cool little image," put the image in, "And can you work with this and spit something out?

And then we can," you know. And then back and forth it a little bit. Mm. You know? Have a little bit of a [00:15:00] chat. But my other tip is, for me, it's three to four prompts, then out. Because if, if it doesn't get what you want in the first three to four prompt, it kind of starts to backtrack and regurgitate and second-guess itself and go, "Oh, you're right, I got that wrong."

"Oh, you're right, I got that wrong." And then it goes back and forth, and it starts to get confused. So, you know, two or three well-written prompts and then get out and do the rest on your own.

Mel: Mm. Love that. And, uh, I certainly noticed that with Claude when I've said, "Well, where'd you get this source from or this statistic from?"

And it'll say, "I got it from here." Okay, well, where's the original source? It's like, "Oh, you're right, there is none."

Yeah.

Should I take that out?" Yes. Yeah. And then, yeah, it has gotten a bit back and forth, but it's... I've trained it a little bit better now so that it does actually now go, "Here's the original source.

Here's this."

Kate: Yeah.

Mel: But, um, I certainly, yeah, would always double-check everything that it spits out.

Kate: Yeah. I mean, it's a people pleaser. People describe it- as like a really eager intern. And so, you [00:16:00] know, like, if I wrote... W- we're just doing a session with my, my marketing membership, and we're like, "You know, what...

I- is Kate Toon a good person?" we put into it. Uh, and it kind of came back with a few answers, but it knew it was me, and it, and, and it said, "But if this is you, Kate, then, you know, I've got a different response." And it... And I said, "Yeah, yeah, it's me. You've got me." And it went, "Ah, got ya." Um, you know, and it did a quite a funny response about how I should stop googling myself.

But then someone else did it, and it did a much better job of kind of going to review sites and collating positive reviews and saying what my core strengths were, but also what my weaknesses were.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Kate: You know? So it knows who's asking, it knows everything you've ever asked before. It's got memory. You know, some, some of them are better than others.

So that's both wonderful and also terrifying. Yes. You know? So i- i- it's getting better and better, you know?

Mel: Well, that leads nicely to my next question, which is w- what excites you about AI, but also what worries you?[00:17:00]

Kate: Look, honestly, nothing worries me because I... Ugh, this is very kind of philosophical. I, I have a deep-rooted belief in humanity, uh, and that we overcome things easily, and that we are hugely adaptable. You know, we developed from little creatures that crawled out of a pond. We'll survive AI. Um, it will change lots of things.

I mean, I worry about the environmental impact. Uh, you know, I do worry about that, but there's lots of other things doing a lot worse things to the environment, uh, and lots of humans, uh, making decisions which are doing a lot worse to the environment. Won't name them now, but- Mm-hmm ... you know, um, I think we'll all be okay.

Or we won't, and we'll be obliterated- ... and another species will come along and do a lot better job than we will, and that'll be fine as well.

Mel: Either or, really. Yeah,

Kate: I know. I just don't think it doesn't matter. Do you know what I mean? And if, if, if we do implode and destroy ourselves, well, we won't be here.

[00:18:00] We won't know anything about it, will we? So- That's very true ...

Mel: it'll be fine. Yeah. Now, you've written

Kate: a few books. I have.

Mel: So what's your latest one?

Kate: My latest one is called Six Figures in Sales- Six- ... for anybody who's watching the video. Uh- Yeah ... How to Win More Customers Without Spending a Cent on Ads. Ooh.

So the, the, the premise is I don't like giving money to Mark Zuckerberg, so how can I sell my products and services without using Meta ads? Hmm.

Mel: Okay, cool. Or

Kate: Google ads. Yeah.

Mel: And is that something you've been testing with the bookshop or... and, and your own products?

Kate: Yeah. I mean, I've written three books. My first one was about juggling parenthood and running a business, and the guilt that's associated with that.

The second one was about building passive income, so using your skills and turning 'em into digital products. This one really is kind of like the summation of everything I've learned. I mean, I've been in advertising- Mm ... since I was 21. You know, Ogilvy, working for, like, Amex and Telstra, and then Microsoft.

Uh, you name it, you know? Um, and then I've been working on my own business as [00:19:00] a solopreneur for many years, and now I have a bookshop, so I've got face-to-face retail. So there's really no type of selling I haven't done- Mm ... from door to door, to online, to in person, to from the stage, to e-commerce, to retail.

Um, and there's some very common threads throughout all of that, and I just kinda wanted to shove that all into one non-boring, non-dry business book.

Mel: Yeah. Wonderful. Mm. So for those who are interested in the book, you say, you know, without using Meta, without using- Mm ... Google Ads. Can you give us a little sneak peek of, or an idea from the book?

Kate: Yeah. I mean, the thing is, you could, you can do everything in the book and use ads as well. Mm. Um, because really the book is about understanding the core nature of advertising and selling, um, and how it's different from marketing. So, you know, marketing is all about brand awareness and getting people to know who you are and what you sell and why you're different.

But, uh, and getting a lead, getting someone to the point where they're almost ready. Um, and then selling [00:20:00] is getting them over the line. Mm. So overcoming their objections. I think the biggest message from the book is, is that selling isn't bad. You know? Mm. People like buying things. Most people, by the time they've got to the point that you're talking to them, have gone through a series of decisions.

They've done vice averses, they've read testimonials. They're at the point of talking to you, whether that's via your form or over the counter. Um, and all they need to do is overcome some final objections, and they're very rarely about price. People often think it's all about the price. Often it's like the, the thing is it's really about is value.

I'm happy to pay a high price if it does what it says on the tin. Does it do what it says on the tin? Prove that to me. Explain it to me. So I see selling as- Informed explanation Mm ... e- enthusiastic explanation. You know, if you c- if you really think something's great, it's easy to sell 'cause it just seeps from your pores, your excitement about it.

Yeah. Um, and if there's a bit of a twitch, you know that maybe the salesperson [00:21:00] doesn't quite believe what they're saying, and, and customers can smell that, I think.

Mel: Mm.

Kate: Mm-hmm.

Mel: And it, it, you know, I draw a lot of parallels with that with, um, change work that I do a lot of internally in particular. You know, it's, uh, what is the motivator for people to change, to make a decision to follow what you've asked them to do or, you know- Especially

Kate: when people hate change- It- in all its forms.

Mel: Yes, exactly. And it, it, it's very rarely... I, I remember Dan Pink's research around what motivates employees, and it's not money. It's autonomy, it's mastery, and it's purpose. Yep. And, you know, that's the thing you gotta sell. Yep. Not the, not the wage, not the bonus. I mean, they're nice, but

Kate: And I think the same with change and with sales is that, like, people only want a few basic things.

Mm. They wanna feel important, they wanna feel secure, they wanna feel part of the pack. They don't wanna feel ostracized. They wanna be loved, they wanna be admired, and they don't wanna look like a fool. Mm. Um, uh, you know, and I think, I think that would apply to everything [00:22:00] you do as well. Like, those are the core emotions.

And y- I mean, every- everyone wants to not worry about money, but security is different to, to money- Yes ... and being loved is different. And if you can get to that, like any product you pick up and you go, "What, what pr- what is this product really providing for the customer?" You know, I've got a nail file here.

Sell me this nail file, Kate Toon. I'm not selling the nail file. I'm not selling the grit of the sandpaper on it, or the shape, or anything like that. I'm selling having nice nails. Mm. And why do I wanna have nice nails? 'Cause I don't want someone to look at me and think I'm a grubby moo. And why don't I want some- someone to look at me like I'm a grubby moo?

Because I wanna be accepted and loved and admired. Mm. So I'm selling admiration, I'm not selling a nail file. Got it. Do you know what I mean?

Mel: Yeah. I love that. One last question for the formal part of today's proceedings.

Kate: Yes.

Mel: Thinking back to the books you've written and knowing what you now know about AI, would you change anything in those books?

Kate: Um-

Mel: Or added?

Kate: I think it would've saved me a lot of bloody time if I'd- ... used AI to write them. Um, [00:23:00] no, I wouldn't. And, you know, AI is always sitting there in the corner. I'm writing a novel now. I've started a course- Cool ... to write a cri- a crime novel, and it's always sitting there in the cor- corner, and the most tempting one for me is Copilot, uh, which is a Microsoft AI, which is just amazing because you can be in the middle of a sentence and, and go, "Ugh, can't be bothered finishing this sentence."

Boop, and Copilot will finish the sentence for you, fully understanding the sentiment of the paragraph above and the paragraph below and the document on its own. And it can finish it in a fun way or a sad way or a serious way, and geez, it's so easy to just press that button. Mm. Uh, and what it pumps out, you know, you really wanna say it's bad, and it's full of em dashes, and it says innovative, and it's shit.

Sorry to swear, but it's really good. Mm. And sometimes what it pumps out is a better one than what I could write. Um, so no, I wouldn't change it, and I wouldn't wanna use AI in anything I do, and I don't think I... talked about AI in the last book and the book before 'cause it was around then. I, [00:24:00] I wrote the books in the last three years.

Um, so I've included AI. I'm glad I didn't use AI because I think it would be like- You know, imagine going out to your book launch and being all proud of your book, but knowing that chapter six, "I didn't really write that chapter." Mm. Like, you're just so worried that someone will find you out and you're a charlatan.

And you just wouldn't, you wouldn't love the book in the way that you, you could if you'd pored over it in the dark of the night, you know? Mm. So yeah, and I wouldn't change a thing.

Mel: I love that. And I totally agree. Like, with both my books, the actual process of writing is what I really enjoyed. It's horrendous.

Kate: Yeah. I enjoyed it. No, it is enjoyable.

Mel: Yeah.

Kate: It's so enjoyable, but it's also torturous and hard

Mel: work. You second-guess constantly, and is somebody gonna think this is shit? Um- Yeah. ... for me, the hard part came afterwards, you know, trying to convince people to buy it. Like,

Kate: that was- Yeah ... the hardest. Well, because they're...

You know, I think, you know, people say-

Mel: Why would anybody buy this?

Kate: I know that the people say writing a book is the hard part, but absolutely not. No. Now I work in a bookshop, you understand that so many books are published [00:25:00] and, and so many of them get returned and pulped, you know? Mm. And, and, you know, there's poor authors who've put, like, three of...

I mean, my business books didn't take too long to write, 'cause it's, you know, like you, I've been doing this every day for 20 years. So when you suddenly put pen to paper, it just kind of goes bluh. Yeah. Um, but writing a novel, I mean, it's probably gonna take me two years to write a novel.

Mel: Mm.

Kate: And will it do well?

Probably not, you know? Yeah. And the, uh... And that's, that's a weird concept, and I know as I'm writing it that it will probably never get published. It will probably... Even if it does, it probably won't do very well. Even if it does well, no one will care about it, 'cause another book will come out the next day, and that's a weird thing.

But yet I still want to write it. Yeah. And that shows that we're humans, right? 100%.

Mel: That

Kate: we s- we're gonna do something that will ultimately we know m- will probably fail, but we're doing it anyway.

Mel: Well, I always say unless you're Brene Brown or Adam Grant or Simon Sinek, you're probably not gonna make a lot of money out of writing a book.

Kate: Oh, no.

Mel: But it's getting the ideas out. It's having the credibility of having a book as well, and [00:26:00] yeah, just that, um, you know, having something that you can share with people as well. Yeah.

Kate: And I think it also for me really consolidated what I know. Like, I feel I know- Mm ... what I know a lot better because you...

to try and, uh, uh... People who can explain what they know know it better than others. You know, I get a lot of people coming on my pod- podcast, and they're great at doing the do, but they're not good at explaining how they do the do to others. Mm. So I think writing a book is an excellent personal development task to really go, "I can only put in here what's essential," is some of, you know, get rid of the fluff and really get to the core of it.

So I think it made me cleverer writing my book.

Mel: Um, now we have three questions that we ask every guest on the podcast. Mm-hmm. You ready for those? I know.

Kate: Yes, yes.

Mel: Let's do it.

Kate: That's how it works. No, I don't.

Mel: No, you'll be fine.

What is an unexpected or left-of-field way that you've learned a valuable lesson about communication?

Kate: I think just the stupid things I sometimes say or used to say. Like, I think I'm very funny, uh, and it's a real [00:27:00] problem, and I'm, and I am to some people, but I'm not to other. I'm very dry and quite sarcastic.

And just understanding that the way you say things or the things you say just sometimes just don't land.

Mel: Mm.

Kate: Um, and being a bit more cautious about that, rather than just thinking they don't have a sense of humor, accepting that my sense of humor isn't their sense of humor, and being a bit gentler. I think I'm a lot more gentle now than I used to be.

Mel: Good lesson learned.

Kate: Mm.

Mel: Next question: What is a book or podcast, other than your own of course- Mm-hmm ... that you love and would recommend to our listeners?

Kate: Look, I'm not, bizarrely, although I've written business books and I have business podcasts, I don't listen to any, uh, because my time reading and listening to podcasts is for me, it's for leisure and for pleasure.

So I'll pick a- I'm gonna pick a thriller. Oh, yes. Uh, and I, and I, I love Lisa Jewell. She's a, a- an English domestic thriller writer. Um, I think she's absolutely excellent. Um, uh, Don't Let Him In by Lisa Jewell would be my top pick.

Mel: [00:28:00] Ooh, okay. Let's go check that one out at your- Yeah ... local bookstore. And last question: If you could wave your magic wand and change one thing about communication at work, what would it be?

Kate: At work, I mean, it's been a long time since I've actually had a real job. Um, I would pretty much ban all kind of group meetings, uh, where there are more than three people in the room, uh, because I think they're utterly pointless, and one-to-one or one-to-two conversations work much better.

Mel: Oh, I love that. If I could ban town halls, I would.

Kate: Yeah. Yes.

Mel: Uh, they just don't achieve anything usually.

Kate: Well- Yeah, two people are engaging, and the rest just wish they weren't there.

Mel: Exactly. They've turned up- Mm ... 'cause they were told to.

Kate: Yeah.

Mel: Uh, Kate, thank you so much for your time today. If people want to learn more about you, the work you do, your courses, your books, what's the best way for them to do that?

Kate: Well, thankfully, I did SEO for very many years. If you Google Kate toon, T-double O-N, you will find something about me, [00:29:00] and you can start your adventure there.

Mel: Wonderful, and we will put a link to your website in the show notes as well. Kate, thank you so much again for joining us on Less Chatter, More Matter.

Kate: Thank you.