Mel: [00:00:00] When was the last time you had a really, really good conversation? The kind that challenged everyone in the room, but opened up new perspectives and new ways of doing things, that left everybody feeling elated and not downtrodden or embarrassed. The reality is that we're not very good at having these conversations.

Fear gets in the way. But in today's world of constant change, increasing polarisation, uncertainty, more pressure, having these conversations can make the difference between retaining great people and achieving business goals or not doing either of those things. Which is why on today's podcast, I asked one of the smartest humans I know and conversation guru, Noa Rein, to share her wisdom.

Noa is the founder of Spark & Rumble Consulting, and she partners with individuals and organisations to design and execute transformation that lifts performance practically and evidence-based. She's a total data nerd, and I love it. It's all in [00:01:00] the name. We spark the conversations we need to have and then rumble with them in a real and effective way.

Noa is an organisational psychologist and a proud people geek who has spent her career studying why humans do what they do at work and helping them do it better together. Her path runs through academic research and lecturing, senior strategic HR roles, and st- strategic transformation consulting and executive coaching.

Now today, Noa's focus is o- the conversation itself, how to have good conversations, how leaders and teams build the capability to disagree well, stay curious under pressure, and find common ground without demanding agreement first. Noa works from a blend of deep human connection, behavioural design, and evidence-based practice, coaching everyone from CEOs and founders to line managers, and helping teams and cultures move from friction to genuine high-performing engagement.

Noa is determined to build a gooder world, in her [00:02:00] words, one conversation at a time. Wherever possible, have fun doing it. And as you'll hear from this episode, Noa is extremely wise, a deep thinker, and an empathetic listener who has oodles of knowledge to share. So let's get into it. Here's Noa Noa Rein, welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter.

Noa: Hello. Good morning. How are you?

Mel: I'm so good, and I'm very happy that you're here with us. Uh, for our listeners, before we kick off, who are you? What do you do? How did you come to develop your expertise in that space?

Noa: Uh, well, I'm Noa. Uh, I live in Sydney.

Um- At the beginning, it's really funny. How did I get here? Uh, I started in academia, um, uh, geeking out on data and research, um, in organisational behaviour, so all things human. Uh, I think I enrolled in psychology when I was on a hill in New Zealand, and my [00:03:00] mom said- Okay ... "Uh, your forms have arrived. What do I write?"

Mm-hmm. Um, and so I went, "Yeah, psychology." So I did psychology, but also, um, sociology and anthropology. So the interest in humans is not just in one domain. Uh, so that's kind of been a theme for me across time. I've, uh, worked on a PhD in organisational decision-making, which was really interesting, and that's where- Mm-hmm

I got to, um, kind of the behavioural economics and how people really work and how people really make decisions. And so coming from behaviour change from a very human perspective, and I think that's the main theme across time. Currently, I have, uh, my business, Spark and Rumble Consulting. So Spark and Rumble is, uh, to spark the conversations we need to have, and then really rumble with them.

Uh, because I do... What we know from research, but also from my experience, is that the real [00:04:00] conversations happen when you get into the nuance and really trying to understand each other. Um, so that would be the rumbling part. So Spark and Rumble- Mm-hmm ... change, transformation, capability.

Mel: All of the above.

You're a jack of all trades. Well, this leads nicely then into, um, my next question, which is, you know, you work with a lot of different teams in different sectors. What are some of the common challenges that teams are experiencing right now based on what you've observed?

Noa: It's, uh... Um, my dad always says, "May you live in uninteresting times," right?

And that's not the times that we live in. Um, we are currently facing exceptional change. That we've always had change, humans have been changing. I'm not afraid of change. Organisations are change, um, conscious. I think what's coming at us is it's coming at us from all directions, [00:05:00] and that experience for people in Organisations is really important because it's not that we come in and we go, "Oh, I'm gonna do my role in my team in this current quarter."

That is not what's happening. So the experience of... It's almost an onslaught of geopolitical situation, um, AI as a technology that is promising to disrupt our lives in a way that has no hope and no future. But hey- ... let's go to work tomorrow morning as per usual and show empathy and care towards our employees.

Um, we look at our children and we're not sure, you know, how to raise them and where to go, right? Like there's, there's so much happening in our world, um, and we're expected to just continue because there's a lot at stake. And so on top of that, and this is really important for the Australian context which I work in, um, there is an attempt and a real, um, a real need to be [00:06:00] kind.

And I know I'm saying quite... That's quite a statement, but we know from the Edelman report that Australia is the only, uh, Western country, I think it's a Western country, that, um, is bucking the trend of, um, extreme polarisation. So it's not that we don't have polarisation, but that kind of decline-

Australia is one of the only ones that is bucking that trend. And so we're seeing this real need, um, for people to figure this out. within a context of, uh, work safe, you know, and psychological safety policies which aim to do real good but also create paralysis. So- Mm ... what I'm describing is a pull-push of forces constantly on all fronts.

Mm. And I'm going to assume that all the conversations we're having is not about bullying situations and not about extreme negative, but rather people doing their jobs in the day-to-day in high innovation, high needs, high change. Um, so that's [00:07:00] where people are finding themselves, and they're supposed to look like they know what they're doing.

Mel: Hmm.

Noa: Right?

Mel: Yes.

Noa: And so that situation is... First of all, it's stressful.

Mel: Hmm.

Noa: Um, so we, we can talk about that in a minute, but within the context of expectation for conversations, it's paralysing. Okay? And so what we're seeing is people wanting to engage but being unable to engage.

Mel: Mm.

Noa: And I'm not saying that as an excuse.

I'm saying that as an actual reality of, okay, if I talk, um, I had a situation with a, um, I don't know which gen it was, but it was a young gen, right? So Gen Z or, um... And they have real questions that they want answered. So why do I have to come in at 9:00 AM? Now, that is not a question that used to be asked, and often when y- you hear it and you've been doing this job for a while, you're like, "Why is that a question?"

And that's in itself disrespectful. But [00:08:00] actually, quite often it's not disrespectful. It's not meant as disrespectful. It's part of a change in societal expectations-

Mel: Yeah ...

Noa: that wants an answer. It can have an answer that that's how we do it here. That's fine. But quite often that's met with quite a bit of conflict.

It's quite a bit of emotional response. And so we're finding that then they say, "Okay, but that conversation was psychological, psychologically unsafe for me." Mm. And the manager tears their hair out. Like, they're just like, "I don't know what you want me to do here." And that's the easier conversations that we need to have.

Mel: Mm.

Noa: Um, so what I'm seeing, if I, if I pull this together, it's forces that are- Mm ... pull-pushing us. It's capability that is needed but not invested in because we expect to do things fast- And, you know, if you could just get an output from ChatGPT, that would be great. Claude is great for that also, and that's just not what we need.

We need nuance- Mm ... we need patience. That's just not available at the moment for [00:09:00] most people.

Mel: And how is this, like, you talked about the, the fact that it's, um, you know, there's all these different forces that we are facing into more uncertainty, more change than ever before. How is this showing up in people's behaviours at work?

And you mentioned stress before, and obviously stress has a big impact on our, our brain health, our physical health, but also our behaviours. How, how are you seeing this show up? Yeah.

Noa: So wh- I, I'm gonna use, um, Edelman, uh, Edelman's Trust Barometer, right? One of the things that we're seeing is, um, a polarisation.

Okay, so polarisation means that when I have a disagreement, so I don't appreciate, um, a direction that you've decided to take the team on, what I do is I go to the polar opposites, right? So between the poles, there's heaps of space, uh, but it, we, we have this sense of certainty. Okay? [00:10:00] So what we have is polarisation.

Within that, we are afraid. Mm. And because we're afraid, we're isolating, and we are self-censoring. So one of the... Um, I'm going to look for the, the statistic, but we find, or there's findings that consistently people are self-isolating. Mm-hmm. Uh, so self-censoring. So you don't even know that I have a thought- Mm

because I'm keeping it to myself because I feel that that will either put me at risk or you'll get offended. So in Australia, there's a lot of, "I don't wanna offend." Mm-hmm. And then what happens, that creates a polarisation, and then what we're seeing is, put those two together, we're becoming insular. Um, the statistic that I wanted to find, I think it was 70%, uh, of people.

It says here 70% of people are either unwilling or hesitant to trust someone whose values, facts, problem-solving approaches, or cultural background's different from their, leaving 30% open. [00:11:00] 70%.

Mel: Mm.

Noa: Okay? And so one of the things that we're seeing is, um, people are opting out of either managers or teams that they disagree with before they engage in the disagreement.

So you kind of y- there's a s- strong silence experience that you don't even know that people are being silent. Silent and polarising, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Now, that is a huge loss. So first of all, it's a risk, but also it's a loss because we don't do innovation, we can't share differences. If I am different, I am perceived as risk.

If I'm upset, I'm perceived as risk. Mm-hmm. Um, and all of those things prevent us from rumbling, right? Like that, that situation. So one, we're losing innovation. The other is if you think what made a great conversation, it wasn't because you agreed. It just wasn't. If you look back at your ama- wow, that conversation was amazing.

I had on the weekend, I, uh, [00:12:00] uh, I went for a beautiful weekend away, and there were two... There was a 16-year-old and a 22-year-old, which I HR appropriately found myself in a hot tub with. Swear to God- ... it was really appropriate. All parents were around. It was a really, really fun afterno- uh, evening. And surprisingly, these kids engaged in long conversations with me, right?

Like it was... And, and, uh, when we went out, uh, um, the 16-year-old went, "That was the best conversation ever." Right? And, and we had gone from Wittgenstein, and career, and, uh, geopolitics, and, uh, being young, uh, and none of the issues were avoided.

Mel: Mm.

Noa: Right? And we didn't disagree on a- almost an- we didn't agree on almost anything, and it was the best conversation because we heard each other, because we engaged in differences- Mm

because there was curiosity. Try and think when was the last time you had that experience in the workplace- Mm ... [00:13:00] where you shared something difficult and people asked you follow-up questions. Um- Mm. So one of the things that we've seen in Edelman, um, and I think it was followed up with a couple of other Australian, um, research, is that we're seeing the greatest divide between generations actually.

Mm. So we think about geopolitics as the main, um, issue that we have in the workplace, but actually it's gender and, um, um, ages.

Mel: Wow.

Noa: And so if you think what that means, um, for innovation, for productivity, for, um, engaging in crisis around change or non-crisis, just planning, uh, we can't hear each other. Mm. So it's a huge issue for organisations.

Mel: Yeah. So other than getting everybody together in a hot tub, how can we-

Noa: Which I don't

[00:14:00] recommend you do. That is not the take-

Mel: That's not the takeaway. How can we create conversations that help people to surface these worries as well as inform and engage them about what's happening around the organisation, and really, like, open up those lines of communication?

Noa: Yeah. So- The way I think about this, and it's truly values-driven.

So, um, I am, you know, Mel, I would like to be a carpenter in my next life because, one, I can explain what that means to people. But also, um, you know, you're working with something that wants to be worked with. The challenge with, uh, difficult conversations is that they're difficult. And the reason that I do this, um, and, and, and here, here I'm going to be very, um, how do you say?

Um, I don't know, true to the real thing. Um, I don't know how to make sure that democracy and, um, diversity [00:15:00] continues- Mm-hmm ... if we don't learn to have conversations. I, I just don't. The only way that I know how to continue the abundance that is, you know, uh, democratic experiences, um, is to have the difficult conversation, is to sit with people that I don't know, I don't understand.

I will probably 100% mess it up. I will probably say, you know, words that should, you know, have a different meaning to people. Um, I don't want the world that will exist without that. Mm. If we tr- then translate that into business, there is no productivity, there is no innovation without it. There just isn't.

Now, hoping that it will happen is no longer, it's no longer accessible to us. The forces are too strong. And so building that capability is the only thing that we have available to us to kind of, um, create the robustness that we need. And I kn- I know everyone to a CEO, I work with [00:16:00] CEOs, everyone's like, "This is the most important priority that you should make your team, uh, do."

But if you stop for a second and think what's at stake if we cannot converse, if what is conversing is technology that is fed by our isolation and our, you know, biases and beliefs, which is what AI is doing, then there is no future of innovation and, um, drive and connectivity. So- Mm-hmm ... the thing that I'm finding is, one, this is really hard and it's risky.

So a CEO or, or even an exec team that decide to do this, they will be met... Sometimes they'll be met with, you know, structured, um, you know, people saying, "This is not okay with us." But they will also be met with a chance that they will be taken to Fair Work, for example, or to- Mm ... WorkSafe. Um, and kind of building that discomfort around Yep, that wasn't the bestest.

[00:17:00] Um, when I worked with one of the Organisations, we made a rule, get back in the room. So if I've had a difficult conversation, Mel, with you, and I've said the wrong thing, and you were like, "Nah, I'm not... I don't like it. That's not okay with me," we get back in the room to figure it out.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Noa: I'm not saying that for bullies.

That is not the situation. But what I'm saying is normal people situ- There we go. Normal people, there is normal. Um, does that make sense? Like you get back- Yeah ... in the room. That ability doesn't exist. It certainly doesn't exist in Australia as a societal rule. In a societal rule, we are polite. If I was impolite, I don't get another invitation, right?

Mm. That's kind of the... Um, so one is you need to make a decision to do hard things in a time that everything is hard, so I get that. But really what you're doing is inoculating your team. Like you're able- they're able to meet moments in a much, much, um, more difficult time that is coming potentially. And very importantly, the [00:18:00] innovation is out of this world when you're able to do this.

Mm. The- out of this world, right? And so those are kind of the three things. What stops us is the fear that we will get it wrong.

Mel: Yeah. That's huge.

Noa: And, and that we will be challenged in arenas that are not the rooms. So social media, nobody's list, so everyone blasts. I ha- I have to give this example. I'm gonna give this example.

So when I do difficult conversations, everyone thinks, "Oh, I'm gonna say the wrong thing about the Israeli-Palestine conflict," or, "I'm gonna say the wrong thing about, um, gender. You know, I'll use the wrong LGBTQI terms." Like, everyone thinks about that. I wanna share to everyone that one of my, um, very committed, uh, goals is to find really good tiramisu recipes.

Mel: Mm.

Noa: What can I say?

Mel: Good goal.

Noa: I found, I found a recipe that is, they make balls of tiramisu. I don't know how I went in. You know, you go into the comments, you're like, "I'm gonna figure this out." There was hate [00:19:00] comments on the tira- ba- tiramisu ball recipe.

Mel: Oh, for heaven's sake.

Noa: Hate comment. Hate, not... Okay? So when you go into tiramisu recipes and there's hate comments, we live in a world that is very difficult to overcome the risk, okay?

Mm. So what do I want in Organisations? One, we have to put some guardrails and to really build, build containers. Execs can't just become impatient with the process after we've started it. Yeah. The other thing is practice, practice, practice. This doesn't happen in one arena with an L&D person going, "Today is difficult conversation day."

Um, so that's the other thing. The good news is it is amazing what happens when you do. Mm. It is absolutely astounding, and you can't go backwards. You can't go backwards because people are, "That's not real. I don't understand why we would, we would spend time in isolation-" Don't know if that, uh-

Mel: You know, it does.

And I think it- to, to bring it down, I guess, to some more kind of very practical-

Yeah ...

Mel: [00:20:00] um, tips for people who are listening, one is obviously, like, leaders need to role model this behaviour. So- Yeah ... you know, lead from the top, showcase these open conversations. But what are some other practical things that people can do to set up the conversations- Yeah

in safe spaces, um, to, to lead them to ask good questions?

Noa: So I, um, I would start with the inside out process. So I always suggest before we make this a cultural thing, we're rolling out stuff, you know, um, all, all the... We start from within. Okay? So this is asking us for real deep change, and it's asking us to meet ourselves in moments that are really uncomfortable.

So I do this work all the time. Um, part of my practice is to go into different communities, if they let me in, and actually sit there in absolute unimaginable discomfort. Like, I, I have to say, I... And I feel my emotions, and I see my reactions, and then I test myself [00:21:00] against them because what I wanna do is show up in a way that is conducive with what I'm saying.

And I, who immerse myself in this, find it difficult. Mm-hmm. Okay? So that constant process of self-awareness and why did that happen and why did that piss me off. Like, why did the 9 of- n- 9:00 AM conversation piss me off to the degree that it has had that response? What is going on? And then it's, there's a few rules to it.

So one, you're listening. Okay? Now, I know that that word is a, is a great buzzword, but you're actually listening, and then you're doing follow-up questions. And the- The two forces that are at play is certainty- Mm-hmm ... and what we want to meet it with is curiosity. And people often think that if I meet something with curiosity, then I'm agreeing to it.

Mel: Yeah.

Noa: Okay? And I routinely sit with people who have very different, very different beliefs than I do, and my b- beliefs are quite strong, or my values are quite [00:22:00] strong, and I practice asking them questions on how they got there. The reason being is that the truth is tribal, okay? This is something that I want leaders to, to really understand.

The truth is tribal. So it could be that my tribe is marketing, and marketing have really strong beliefs compared to finance or tech, right?

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Noa: And when tech come up and they say tech stack, marketing hears, "You're stopping us," right? Like, so the, the, the truth is, is tribal. So me listening to what truths are out there, and then meeting it with curiosity, not certainty, is one of your biggest, um, ve- quite tactical things to do.

So questions. Mm. Questioning myself on why this is important to me.

Mel: Yeah.

Noa: And really knowing that when I question myself, I don't have to take action. So this is another thing that makes it really hard. Leaders are action-oriented. [00:23:00] If I say you can listen to this and not respond with an action, and you can hear something that really bothers you and not respond with an action, that almost seems like, um, I'm smoking something and it's not-

you know, fresh air. Um, and so hopefully that, that helps. So very, very practically, meet certainty with curiosity, follow up questions, know that you don't have to take action and that you will take action, and my last, um- practical suggestion, and this won't sound practical, so you just have to trust me Is one of the reasons we build these capabilities is so that when we need them, we can use them.

So Monica Guzman talks about building the bridge so that when people are ready, they will cross. Okay? You cannot push people across the bridge. That is potentially, you know, attempted murder, so we're not pushing people. Okay. But building the bridge and [00:24:00] saying, "It's here. We need to cross," okay, um, is really, really important leadership capability.

Um- Mm. So the bridge is you, the bridge is the processes, the bridge is the rooms. Um, a very practical example of what I mean by the rooms, we usually give these conversations... I had a COO, uh, that went to another country, and she showed me her plan, and she said, "This team is, um, is showing signs of distress."

And I looked at it, went, "You gave them half an hour." And she said, "Yep, that, that's what the agenda allowed." I said, "Cancel the meeting. Cancel the meeting. Do not do half-hour meetings for something that might take two." Mm. Be ready to book another meeting. Everything I'm saying now is a- opposing people's efficiency radars You will get that sorted if you give it time.

That is the container that is needed. Mm-hmm. Okay? So things like that. You see why it's difficult, because everything I'm saying is [00:25:00] opposed to people's experiences.

Mel: Yeah. No, it absolutely makes sense. You know, and, you know, we see this, um, time and time again in research that when people become leaders for the first time, they aren't given the training and the mentoring they need.

They're just like, "Here, you have a title now. You should just know what to do because you have this title." So th- they're often coming from a very low baseline, which is no fault of their own. But then layer on the fact that, um, I think it might have been a Gallup report recently around the fact that managers, uh, or those middle management layers are the ones that are feeling the most pressure.

They are the most disengaged. Yes. They're the most stressed.

Noa: Yes.

Mel: They are being piled upon by the senior leadership and then trying to work with all the people who report to them. They are really that meat in the sandwich, and to have the time and the head space and the confidence and- Yeah ... the willingness to have these [00:26:00] conversations is really hard.

So I see where you're coming from. And, but the problem then is that we almost kick the can down the road, don't we? Because by the time-

Noa: Always ...

Mel: something has actually blown up, you could have prevented it, you know, 20 days beforehand.

Noa: Yeah. And, and so look, the, uh, how long do we have for me to talk about how important prevention is, right?

Um, but, but the, I think the reality, if we stop for a second, the, the reality of leaders and CEOs and, and not just leaders and CEOs, humans- Mm ... um, is everything's important. Yeah. Everything's important. So you should have your, um, AI strategy and also have you done your fire alarm testing? And- Mm ... they're just coming at us with, "Here's all the stuff that's important, and here's research to support it."

The reason that I focus on this is not because there's other things that are not important. We really have to do the strategy and the, you [00:27:00] know, uh, planning for the next quarter. The, that's just irresponsible not to. If you are asking what is the one thing across all domains that will enable you to do all of those things, it's having the conversations that we need to have.

Mm. We are going to continue to be different. There are very baffling humans in Organisations, and people are baffled might be just as much as I'm baffled by them. So if we're- Mm ... assuming that that's the reality, and I need all of you baffling people to come with me, and we're going to do the best we can or even amazing- Good conversations is at the base of everything.

One of the things that gets in the way, other than, "Really, Noa, you have another priority to share with me? Excellent," is, um, we assume that be- because we're speaking l- English, and because common sense, and because can you just be an adult, then if people just read a book or listen to a [00:28:00] podcast, then you'll be goodsies, right?

And that's never happened on any topic, let alone this complexity. Um, I have some of my practices, I listen- there's a podcast I listen to that's called, uh, Conversations With People Who Hate Me. Um, I don't know if you've, uh, heard that. No. I, I saw his TED Talk. He's amazing, right? So he literally calls the people who leave nasty comments on Facebook, and he has the most amazing conversations, and every time I'm like, "I know what he's gonna say.

I know what he's gonna say," I'm wrong, right? Yeah. And I do this for a living. And so that ability to constantly practice the conversations that you, um... How to have conversations with people you disagree with, um, to me is at the core of, A, the connection and humanity that I want, but we actually can't get anything done without it.

Mm-hmm. Look at how much you're paying for stalled projects. Look how much you're paying for innovation that's walking out the door, [00:29:00] issues that you're missing that could've been flagged, right? Um, stop for a second and think how much of that is good conversation. Good, not effe- not efficient.

Mel: Yeah.

Noa: Okay? Not ticking the box, not that.

And, and think of what your world or your business will be with them. There is no shortcuts to learning it, but there are absolutely tools. So there is absolutely- Mm-hmm ... a do/don't do. The practicing of it is, um, you know. Yes. I got a few podcasts for you. Yeah. Practice in the car.

Mel: That's

Noa: it, yep. Uh, but it, it changes.

It changes, and your world is different with it, and you leave, um, the existential, um, hot tubs- ...

Mel: and

Noa: go, "That was an amazing conversation," and your life is more, and you are able to do more. So-

Mel: Mm-hmm. Well, that seems like a good place to wrap up, uh, the formal part of today's proceedings. [00:30:00] Thank you for sharing, and, uh, knowing you, uh, as I have gotten to know you over the past few years, that's just the tip of the iceberg, everybody, of the brain that, uh, is Noa.

So, uh, I would highly recommend you, uh, look up some of Noa's work, and, um, I know Noa loves a conversation, so I'm sure if you reach out. But we have three questions that we ask every guest on the podcast. You ready for those?

Noa: Let's try. Go.

Mel: Yep. Let's do it. What is an unexpected or left-of-field way you've learnt a valuable lesson about communication?

Noa: I think it's always like I, I have something in mind. Um, uh, I, I was talking to someone about trust and she... And I was like, you know, you know me, I'm certain, um, a lot of the time. And she just flipped it and she showed me in one second, I'm sorry that I can't, um, I can't share the exact, uh- Mm ... because it was a personal situation, but she just went, "Oh, [00:31:00] like you won't do this?"

And she... You know, when you stop in your tracks and you go

Mel: I, yeah.

Noa: Oh my God, I can't believe I didn't see it. Mm. So the, these moments where people show you your blind spots and still love you afterwards-

Mel: Mm ... '

Noa: cause you feel so dumb in those situations, right? Oh, yeah. And so the, I... You know what, I'll, I'll share this.

I know... I'll, I'll share this situation. I, uh, very, at the beginning of, uh, I was doing leadership development with a group, and afterwards I came up to the, uh, COO and I said, "What do you think?" And he said, "Very meaningful. Um, if you could please, uh, give examples that w- don't make everyone wanna kill themselves at the end-" Oh

that would be great." And no, like, like that, that, that was what I did. Wow. And what he was sharing with me is that the directness of the examples was too much as, as a beginning, and he- Mm ... changed all of my practice. Like, if he hadn't said that [00:32:00] to me- Mm. And that was an absolute blind spot, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And so that's an example of how, um, I've changed my practice.

Mel: Mm. And that's, it's a p- like, feedback is a gift, right? Most of the time. Sometimes you've gotta let go- And he said- ... but that's a...

Noa: He said it with respect, so he didn't say it and then walked off and never spoke to me again, which is most people.

Mm-hmm. They just don't rehire you or they don't give you... Like, they'll tell that to someone else. Mm. And what that made me do was just be able to change right, like, immediately I went, "Ah, I get it. Yes, no, absolutely. That completely makes sense. Thanks for telling me." Um, and you know, I can share it with you here without feeling- Yeah

ashamed. Um-

Mel: Oh, look, it's all learning, isn't it? And we don't know what we don't know. There we go. So I always think that, like- I'm so grateful for- It's one of the things I say at the end of, well, whenever I run a workshop, but also, um, I teach group fitness classes, and it's, um, people are afraid to give you the feedback.

It's like, no, no, like, if there's something I'm doing that is annoying that I'm not aware of, you need to let me know so I'll stop [00:33:00] doing it. Like- Yeah ... I will stop doing it. It's fine.

Noa: And growth is love, right? Like, so- Yeah ... I don't wanna be humiliated. He tell, he told me to the side. He didn't- Mm-hmm ... stop everyone.

Like, I had a leader that was texting another leader while I was speaking-

Mel: Oh,

Noa: wow ... to try and get me to stop speaking, uh, because he didn't understand. So instead of raising his hand and asking a question- Mm ... which is, uh, what I, um, inspire people to do. So that is divisive, right? Mm. So that's not helpful that...

But that leader when he came in, I immediately changed the examples. It's so easy to change examples- Yeah ... right? Um, and so, yeah, so that's an example of how I changed my practice.

Mel: Love it. Great lesson. Okay, second question. What is a book or podcast you love and would recommend to our listeners?

Noa: Okay, so there's one, uh, I have many, but one that I'm very grateful for is You Are Not So Smart by David McRaney.

His book on how to change minds, uh, so the psychology of influence and [00:34:00] persuasion, uh, has changed my life, um, in ways that are very meaningful and kind of holy shit. Um, and so I love his podcast. It's intelligent, it's funny, it's, um, yeah, just fabulous.

Mel: So You Are Not So Smart. You Are Not So Smart. I will go

Noa: look that

Mel: up after this.

Yeah.

Noa: And then Hidden Brain, Shankar Vedantam. Oh,

Mel: I love that.

Noa: That's a banger, right?

Mel: Yes. They're

Noa: great ones. And Conversations With People Who Hate Me, if you really wanna get down and interested, that, that is a fabulous podcast.

Mel: That's fascinating. I'm gonna go look that one up, too. Last question, if you could wave your magic wand and change one thing about communication at work, what would it be?

Noa: Um, I would love to make it easier, but that's just not gonna happen. But if I had a magic wand, I would get it to be something that people do as if it matters in the world.

Mel: Mm.

Noa: Um, like with a deep kind of [00:35:00] conviction, if that makes sense. That, yeah, that's probably relative.

Mel: I

Noa: love that.

Mel: Well, Noa, thank you so much for joining us on Less Chatter, More Matter today.

Thank you. If people want to get in touch with you, find out more about you and the work you do, what's the best way for them to do that?

Noa: Uh, LinkedIn probably is the best way. I have a website, um, which, you know, one day will be improved. Um, but probably LinkedIn is, is the best way.

Mel: Fantastic. And we'll put links to all those things in the show notes.

Noa, thank you so much again for your time.

Noa: Such a pleasure.