{00:00:00] Mel: Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm Mel Loy, and in this show, I'll give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights you can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business, and never looked back.

[00:00:32] Mel: These days I use my 20 plus years of experience to guide organizations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, aunty to 12 nieces and nephews, a gym owner, group fitness instructor, yoga teacher, and a bunch of other things as well. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and insightful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:00:56] Mel: Hi friends and welcome to another fresh episode of Less [00:01:00] Chatter, More Matter, the podcast where we give you the best with no BS. Speaking of the best, that's you guys who have rated and reviewed the shows so far. You are amazing. So being a reviewer shows that you really care about the content that's put out through these channels because anyone can start a podcast and produce crap. Let's be honest. So it is superb when people take the time to provide feedback, especially when it's valuable. So thank you to the reviewers and I'd really love more of you to jump on board and give me your feedback. The good, the bad, the ugly. I'll take it. So on today's episode, I am delighted to present Jessica Panozzo.

[00:01:40] Mel: Jess is the owner of Feel Good Creative, a website design agency here in Brisbane, Australia. She's a colour loving, food obsessed, website designer. And an ex accountant, but we won't hold that against her. She works with creative businesses and all around good humans to ensure that digital home communicates a special source, [00:02:00] stands out from their competition and is a dream for your visitors to use.

[00:02:05] Mel: She has mastered the art of managing website projects in an efficient, personalized two week period so that you can get back to running your business ASAP.

[00:02:14] Mel: Now, full disclosure, I engaged Jess to redesign my website this year, and that's what sparked the idea to have her on this show. My original website I built in Squarespace myself, and let's just say it definitely looked homemade. And I knew after a couple of years in business, I had to bite the bullet.

[00:02:34] Mel: And get someone who actually knew what they were doing to design the site. And a lot of this has also been a really great learning opportunity for me talking to Jess and going through this process about what works and what doesn't. So that's what this episode is all about today. I have picked Jess's brains on what goes into making a great website, her top tips for getting it right and options if you don't have a huge amount of cash to invest at first. [00:03:00] You can also find out more about Jess in the links in the show notes. So without further ado, let's get into it. Here's Jess. Hi, Jess. Lovely to have you on Less Chatter, More Matter today.

[00:03:11] Jess: Hey Mel, so good to be here. Thanks.

[00:03:14] Mel: I'm excited to have you on the show. So for those of our listeners who may not know much about you, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

[00:03:22] Jess: Uh, I'm a Squarespace and Shopify web designer.

[00:03:27] Jess: I'm based in Brisbane. I work with clients such as yourself, Mel. Um, generally they're creative businesses, um, service and, or eComm businesses. But generally it's for me, it's about the, you know, the quality of the client and, uh, they're all good, beautiful people who I really enjoy working with. Um, I've had my business for almost three years,

[00:03:53] Mel: Wow congratulations!

[00:03:54] Jess: Thanks, and it wasn't a direct journey, but I'm here and I love it.[00:04:00]

[00:04:00] Mel: So tell me a bit more about that journey. Cause it's quite niche to choose Squarespace and Shopify as opposed to... all of the other possible CMSs out there. How did you come to do what you do?

[00:04:12] Jess: Okay. I don't know if you know, I used to be an accountant.

[00:04:16] Mel: I'll forgive you.

[00:04:17] Jess: Yeah. I never wanted to do it. I just finished the degree to please my father and you know, one thing leads to another and you start earning money and it's hard to quit.

[00:04:29] Jess: Um, but when I had kids, I thought, no, this is my chance to actually, you know, break this cycle and do something that I want to do. Um, that still took a long time though. I was working for, as an accountant, but in house for a lifestyle brand, and I guess to improve efficiencies, I just spotted all these areas that were software based, um, and also, you know, they didn't have a website.

[00:04:58] Jess: So I, [00:05:00] I really drove that, that project and we end, we, we went through a few platforms and like the, the girls who were, I guess, managing it on a day to day basis hated it. And eventually I just said, Oh, can, can I just build a Shopify one? Like I know I can do this. And my boss just went, yeah, sure. That'd be great.

[00:05:21] Jess: And I did. And so I've learned all this stuff, like on the job and... you know, I just realized it's just so important that businesses know how to manage your website and the staff are really happy to use it. So it's something that's really user friendly. Uh, so that's how my love of Shopify began and Shopify is for eComm.

[00:05:44] Jess: So I guess Squarespace is the equivalent in terms of ease of use for service based businesses. Um, so yeah, once I left that job, I guess I took more courses to officially be, uh, [00:06:00] more experienced in, uh, in those, in those platforms and web design generally, but. Yeah, over a number of years I just taught myself on the job.

[00:06:10] Mel: And it's interesting is that how so many of us kind of have these very meandering career paths to get to where we are. Like similarly, I started running workshops just out of necessity about 15 years ago at a job I was at and that's what I do a lot of the time now, but you kind of find things you love.

[00:06:29] Mel: Along the way and start to leave behind the things you don't love, right?

[00:06:32] Jess: Yeah. Well, interestingly, like even during COVID, um, I was thinking, Oh, this is, I have got to get out of this job. Like I hate this job so much. Um, and my boss was just being a nightmare, but I was really struggling to work out. Like I knew I wanted, to do something that was creative. I love working with small businesses and helping business owners. Um, and obviously that's where my experience lies, but I just, I [00:07:00] don't know, I went through so many iterations of what I was going to do. And then during COVID I was actually offering like friends or local businesses.

[00:07:09] Jess: I was like, Oh, you've got to get online. Like I can help you out. And it took me so long to realize that, Oh my God, I'm offering to help these people for free. Yet there's no way in the world I'd help people with their accounts for free. And I was like, Oh, I actually really enjoy this. It took me a long time for the ball to drop, that this was something I should pursue because I like it.

[00:07:33] Mel: Oh, good on you. Well, I personally am very glad you made that choice working with you to redo our website recently. So speaking of websites, now that you've been working with them with so many businesses over the last few years. What would you say are some of the common mistakes businesses make with their website design?

[00:07:55] Jess: Uh, I think people find it hard to strike the balance [00:08:00] of how much information to put. It's either not enough and they think that their work just speaks, speaks for itself somehow magically, like whether it's images or. I don't know, they, they just think it's magically going to convey what they do and the quality of it.

[00:08:21] Jess: Um, or they say too much and it's just information overload.

[00:08:27] Mel: Yeah. Right. And I have seen, I actually just recently looked up a website the other day. So I was like, Oh, what's that company? And their... the first kind of couple of lines on their website were just... jargon, basically. So vague. They could have belonged to any company on the planet. I had absolutely no idea what it is they actually did. Is that something you see quite a bit? Like what's, what's the importance of getting that first couple of lines right?

[00:08:56] Jess: Oh, it's critical. Yeah, the rule is people shouldn't [00:09:00] have to scroll to know what you do. So with the words, obviously, you want to be really clear and precise, but then as well with any imagery or branding. It needs to be, I personally believe it needs to be really unique because I think if we just start with the premise that no one's that special, like there are so many people doing the same thing, um, that you need to look different and be different and be very precise about how you're different, um, from the get go.

[00:09:33] Mel: That's a really good tip. And yeah, it's certainly something that, uh, you helped us think about too, was how that brand shows up and really brings out the fact that we're different from other consultancies. So, yeah, I certainly saw that firsthand. And so what is that power of a well designed website? Why should we actually care about it? Why should we invest in it?

[00:09:57] Jess: Because it's the, it's your marketing assistant [00:10:00] that just works nonstop for you. Um, it should be able to answer, answer someone's queries about you or your work. It should, um, convey trust, um, let them get to know you. So it's doing a whole lot of things without you having, you know, after that initial investment, without you having to do more.

[00:10:24] Jess: Yeah, I think it's a real, it's a time saver, like it's the conversation that you can't have with someone like it. Yeah, like if you meet someone in person, then obviously they can have that communication with you. Um, but yeah, a website will do all that on your behalf.

[00:10:42] Mel: I love that idea. That is almost like your permanent digital presence in a way.

[00:10:49] Mel: It's It's what people can, I guess, assess you on when you're not around. I once heard a website described as your digital business card. It gives you that credibility [00:11:00] when people are sort of doing the snoop. Let's be honest. People are going to be Googling you.

[00:11:04] Jess: Oh, and they should. They should, right? Yeah.

[00:11:06] Mel: Yeah. A hundred percent.

[00:11:09] Jess: And it's so much more than a digital business card. I mean, it, it should answer all the questions that people have to want to work with you so that if they were to speak to you. Um, they don't really have that many more questions like they... for example, when people jump on discovery calls with me, it's, they already know what I'm about.

[00:11:30] Jess: They know the process. So it's a high conversion rate because there's not much more for them to find out. It's really just a vibe check, if that makes sense.

[00:11:41] Mel: That's yeah, that's actually a really great tip. You don't want there to be too many unanswered questions because that doesn't give people confidence either to even just book in that discovery call, right?

[00:11:52] Jess: Like, yeah, exactly. Like they will just look at somebody else's website and think, yeah, they're really thorough. That's, that all [00:12:00] sounds good to me. Um, I'll have a chat to that person.

[00:12:03] Mel: I do that, a hundred percent.

[00:12:06] Jess: And especially like a lot of us aren't doing this during daytime hours where you can just pick up a phone and chat to someone. Like it might, you might be looking at a business or a service or a product out of hours. So.

[00:12:20] Mel: Actually, that's a very good point, so many of us are on the phone, right?

[00:12:23] Jess: Yeah, if you have to wait till the next day, like that's already left your mind, your importance and you've moved on. So I think it's capturing people in the moment when they're ready and looking for something.

[00:12:35] Mel: So speaking of that, what are some of your top tips for amplifying your message through website design?

[00:12:43] Jess: Uh, it's covering off like it's no one thing. It's, I think brand is really important. Professional photography is really important and copy is really important. So they all work together and then the final [00:13:00] design uses those elements to convey the one, the one message and give the right perception to people.

[00:13:09] Mel: And when we're talking about brand, we're not just talking about, uh, the colors and fonts and those things are important, but brand is how you talk about yourself too, right? And how you show up in those photos and the types of imagery.

[00:13:23] Jess: Even, um, just the experience that people, that your clients might have to work with you, if you've got a really well thought out, laid out website, it shows that you care about them and the process is going to be easier because you've, you know, your initial touch point is easy for them, um, they can see, they can find exactly what they want, you know, questions they don't even know they have, you're answering them.

[00:13:49] Jess: And then when you reach out, if you're providing a really easy way to do that, like booking a call straight away, and if everything's seamless, then you're already starting that [00:14:00] amazing brand experience of what it's like to work with you.

[00:14:03] Mel: Yeah, I love that. And in your opinion, what makes a great homepage? What were the things you would expect to see on a homepage that goes, yeah, that's ticked all the boxes?

[00:14:15] Jess: Okay, so we've talked about like that first starting point of... what you do. Um, you might have a little blurb about, um, that would link off to an about page. So it's just that kind of bit about who, who the business is.

[00:14:31] Jess: Um, and I like to go in there fairly quickly into, um, very simple blocks that are, you know, highlight your main services and then so that people can self select what's relevant to them and go off to those service pages. I think, if you do that, um, early on the page again, you're getting people exactly where they want to go.

[00:14:55] Jess: They don't have to look for information, uh, and [00:15:00] then some sort of social proof on your website. And what I mean by that is it could be testimonials. It could be, uh, if you're a service provider, it could be like logos of people that you've worked with, or if you've been featured in some press, you would have, you know, logos of, you know, as featured in things like that. But I think it's important to show that, hey, other people have enjoyed working with me and it just people like that reassurance. And then some kind of, if you have a newsletter, you'd have a opt in or a freebie. And then I think they're the essentials and going to a well kind of considered footer with the right links.

[00:15:43] Mel: Those are excellent tips. The other thing I'm wondering about is calls to action. So things like book a call or, uh, you know, just try to get people to be a lead, I guess, straight away. Apart from having, you know, a freebie or [00:16:00] a subscribe, how would you sort of place those calls to action? You know, if you want somebody to book a call with you or, uh, make a purchase straight away, how might you sort of design that into it?

[00:16:13] Jess: I don't, there's no real rules around. I would definitely have it in, I, you know, I will often have it like yours, Mel, in the top right of, um, the main navigation. That's sort of an obvious place that people look. And if you make it. A standout color or it looks different than the things around it that draws the eye to that button. But then through just general sections of your site, like, you just look for natural breaks in paragraphs so the end of a section. Um, if it doesn't like immediately kind of flow to the next, then that's where you'd say, you know, it's just like offering up a suggestion, Hey, do you want to book a call?

[00:16:56] Jess: And I'll have numerous ones on the same page [00:17:00] and, you know, saying it in different ways, like chat to Mel, book a free call, because it's, it's unlikely that someone straight off the bat is going to click it - like they want to keep reading. But you just keep dropping the hints so that they're eventually like, yeah, I may, yeah, this sounds good. I'm going to do it.

[00:17:19] Mel: Now, here's a question for you. What do you think about pop ups on websites? Are they effective? Or... are they just annoying.

[00:17:28] Jess: I find them annoying as anything, and Google knows that people find it annoying. Which is why they do penalize you if they pop up too quickly. So we know that they're effective though, in terms of signups.

[00:17:46] Jess: So I recommend that you, if you're going to have it, have a decent delay on it so that people have already had a decent scroll down a page, like get to maybe 75 percent of a [00:18:00] page or, clicked to another page , or they're leaving your site. There's often, they're the triggers that you can set before it'll pop up.

[00:18:07] Jess: Whereas it's just so annoying when they pop up very quickly. Cause you're like, I don't even know what you're about. And you're trying, you're asking me for something. So it feels... unbalanced or intrusive. I think that's what annoys people.

[00:18:24] Mel: Yeah, actually, that's a good point going back to what you said earlier, too... about how your website helps to build trust in you and your services so it has to do a bit of that work first before I guess you get to the ask.

[00:18:36] Jess: Yeah, exactly It's just rude to ask, it would be like someone asking for your phone number and they haven't even... you know,

[00:18:44] Mel: learned your name yet?

[00:18:44] Jess: Tried to woo you a little bit with a drink. It's like back off!

[00:18:50] Mel: Come on, mate. Hey, just on, you're talking about Google then, are there any things that really drive SEO of a website? Like if you could pick sort of the [00:19:00] top one or two things that people should think about, what would they be?

[00:19:05] Jess: Oh, Mel...

[00:19:07] Mel: So it's a big question!

[00:19:08] Jess: No, I find this really hard because. SEO is just so many pieces of a puzzle. So it's not like, oh, if you nail these two things, like you're, you're really ahead of the game. Um, I would probably, if I was just to pick two things, it would be. Uh, copy that's relevant, uh, because it's engaging.

[00:19:39] Jess: I'd like to think that you're mentioning keywords that are relevant to what people would be searching for. Um, and so using along those lines, like meta descriptions, so fill that out, um, and try and think of words that, so I'm assuming you're not hiring an SEO person, but make it appealing [00:20:00] and useful to someone who would be searching for your services.

[00:20:04] Jess: Um, but yeah, I guess headings and if you're DIYing your website, the order in which you, or the way that you label your heading, so a heading one, through to maybe heading four, like that's all important. So you definitely want one heading one on a page. Um, and that should be your first heading. So that's my tip.

[00:20:25] Mel: Yeah, you know, that's, um, it aligns nicely with an interview we did with Kelly Thibodeau a couple of weeks ago. She's a digital accessibility expert and she talked about the real importance of those heading styles for accessibility for screen readers in particular. But as she said, you know, the benefit of that is also it's excellent for SEO from Google's perspective as well. So being accessible is also ultimately better design in general. Right?

[00:20:54] Jess: Yeah, exactly. And that's what Google's trying to achieve by giving you SEO points. It's like you're making [00:21:00] a usable website that's inclusive for more people. So it's giving you more points for that. It's all about the little brownie points.

[00:21:09] Mel: Yeah. Good to know. So you mentioned before for DIY website - if people are on a budget, you know, they're fresh to this freelancing gig or, you know, starting a new business, they can't invest yet in a designer. They know they will eventually, but they can't yet. What do you suggest they do in the meantime?

[00:21:29] Jess: I would look for a template that's not, so just say, for example, it was Squarespace. I wouldn't necessarily pick a Squarespace template unless it was very themed to your industry. If not, I would look for someone who sells a template that's themed to your, um, industry. And when you fill it out, try to be very diligent and stick [00:22:00] to the words that are set in each section, because that's when design goes, I think, a bit wayward is when, uh, people put too much text in or like, if it's a portrait image in the template, put a portrait image in, don't put a landscape one in because that's when it's going to really start to look wonky and obvious that you've, uh, done it yourself.

[00:22:24] Mel: DIY. Yeah. Uh, that, those are great tips. And certainly, obviously before I came to you, it was a website I'd built myself. I think I learned the hard way very early on. I... I bought a site through WordPress because that's all I'd kind of ever heard about. I hadn't, didn't do my research and

[00:22:43] Jess: it's hard to research anyway, cause everyone's got an opinion.

[00:22:46] Mel: Well, that's true. Yeah. And, uh, realistically for the purposes of what I do, I didn't need anything that technical or I guess with that much capability. And then somebody introduced me to Squarespace a couple of years ago and [00:23:00] oh my goodness, like, and I will say here, I'm not affiliated with Squarespace by any means.

[00:23:03] Mel: I'm not getting paid for this, but yeah, I do love it because it is so simple. So for people who are just starting out. Honestly, my own recommendation from going through that process is find something that's really simple to use, like Squarespace, or I've heard Wix is quite good as well. Just really user friendly, not something that's made for developers.

[00:23:25] Jess: No, exactly. Yeah, you need to be able to go in and make edits yourself. Um, and even, you know, Some people just, you know, would freak out at the thought of having to do a website themselves. Um, so I would say, you know, just get what money you can and perhaps just get someone to do a one page website for you. Because a professional, a professional one page website is going to be a lot better than a hacked up five page website.

[00:23:54] Mel: Yeah, I love that.

[00:23:54] Jess: Or like a cheap, you know, dodgy offshore one.

[00:23:59] Mel: [00:24:00] Yeah, I love that actually. You're giving us a lot of options there. It's kind of a spectrum, right? Like the, They're just start and do something yourself, basic through to put a bit of money into it, get at least one great page designed.

[00:24:11] Jess: Because you can build one later, and I think when people start out to, you know, they don't really know the direction that their business is going to go or what their final services are going to be, as you know, they're constantly evolving. So you probably don't want to pour money into a website when you're just starting.

[00:24:28] Mel: Yeah, that's very true. And I think about that. Your business is probably the same in a way that it's evolved, uh, certainly just by trying to get better at articulating what it is we do want to do and what we don't and niching down a bit and differentiating from other services.

[00:24:45] Mel: Yeah, well, Jess, those have been amazing tips. Thank you for sharing so much gold with us today. I have three questions I asked every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those?

[00:24:57] Jess: I am.

[00:24:58] Mel: Yeah. [00:25:00] All right. So the first question is, what's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:25:11] Jess: Uh, I, the one that I really hang on to is actually from my husband. He, yeah, has taught me to respond to every single client email, even if it, I don't think it deems a response. Because I'm a very direct person. I always think people's times very precious. So why bother them with another email? But I've learned the hard way that, um, people think that maybe ... you know, you haven't got it or they just want reassurance. Like I've had a client that said, you know, no need to respond. We'll talk on Thursday. And then wasn't happy that I hadn't responded. So, so now I always go noted, thanks, [00:26:00] or just some kind of. Yep. Got that. Thank you.

[00:26:05] Mel: Really just, I guess, confirming that, yep, message received.

[00:26:10] Jess: It's just reassurance at every step.

[00:26:12] Mel: Yes. Yeah. That's a really great lesson, actually, that reassurance. And we find, you know, I teach this in my change management course, actually, and it's kind of similar to crisis management, is, um, the more certainty you can give people, the less fear and anxiety they have.

[00:26:27] Mel: So even those little things, as you say, to say, yep, I've got your email can give people that sense of certainty, which reduces their anxiety where they realize it or not.

[00:26:36] Jess: Yeah, exactly. And I mean, they're investing money with us. So we've just got to make them feel safe at every step.

[00:26:45] Mel: Yeah, that's a really great tip. Okay. Second question. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:26:55] Jess: So I wasn't sure if you meant verbal or written, so I'm going to go with [00:27:00] written. Um, I wish everybody used Grammarly. Uh, I think it is just brilliant for keeping communication concise, uh, it does a tone check. So, you know, we'll often, well, I know I, I smash out an email quickly and it'll do a tone check and I'll think, Oh yeah, that sounds a lot better. Um, yeah, and it just removes the, the filler words in the fluff. So it's just nice and clear and concise. So yeah, even copywriters, I think copywriters should use it, which will offend a lot of them.

[00:27:40] Mel: Hey look, a fresh set of eyes, whether that's AI, digital, or another person, is invaluable. Yeah. So invaluable. Yeah. We, we are too close to our own work and our brains see what we want to see. So getting a fresh set of eyes. Absolutely. If that's Grammarly or if it's [00:28:00] your best mate, it's a fresher pair of eyes. Okay. Final question. Who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:28:12] Jess: I, I don't know if you know, Sue's Chadwick, um, she's my business coach and she is amazing. If I know there's something I want to say, but I'm not sure if it, you know, comes across. Sometimes I worry if I'm too salesy, like there'll be something I want to say and she'll give me a very confident, a very warm response.

[00:28:35] Jess: She always knows the right. natural way to say something. And she'll say it and I'll be like, that's amazing. I'm stealing it word for word.

[00:28:45] Mel: That's good. It's good to have those trusted advisors in our lives and whether they are coaches or just, uh, best friends or a book that you've read where you've picked up some good advice, it's always best to have something you can turn to, [00:29:00] to get advice. Well, Jess, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:29:05] Jess: Thanks Mel, it's been awesome.

[00:29:07] Mel: And where can people find out more about you?

[00:29:10] Jess: Um, I'm on Instagram sporadically, uh, feelgoodcreative. au, but of course my website is more thorough. So that is a place I would recommend, which is also just, um, feelgoodcreative. au.

[00:29:26] Mel: And obviously because you're a web designer, we are now all going to have a look at your website to see best practice in action.

[00:29:34] Mel: No pressure.

[00:29:34] Jess: Yeah, for sure.

[00:29:37] Mel: Well Jess, thank you so much.

[00:29:38] Jess: I'll wait for all the leads to come flooding in.

[00:29:45] Mel: We will put all your links in the show notes. So people can find you nice and easily. Thank you again for being so generous with your knowledge today. And thank you for coming on to Less Chatter, More Matter.

[00:29:56] Jess: Thanks Mel it's been unreal. See ya.

[00:29:58] Mel: Cheers.[00:30:00]