[00:00:00] Mel: Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm Mel Loy, and in this show, I'll give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights you can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business, and never looked back.

[00:00:32] Mel: These days I use my 20 plus years of experience to guide organizations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, auntie to 12 nieces and nephews, a gym owner, group fitness instructor, yoga teacher, and a bunch of other things as well. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and insightful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:00:55] Mel: Hi everyone. And welcome back to the show. It is an absolute delight to have you [00:01:00] tuning in. And it's been great to hear that some of you are finding real value in this show. Apart from the feedback I get through social media and text messages and emails, I've actually chatted with a few of you at some events over the last month or so.

[00:01:13] Mel: And I have to say I've been surprised but delighted when you said you're finding value in what I'm sharing here. Thank you so, so much. And if you are finding value, please do me a big favor, leave a quick review and a rating for the show. It would mean the world to me. Now, speaking of delivering value, I have that for you in spades today.

[00:01:35] Mel: I'm really excited to introduce Kelly Thibodeaux as my guest on today's episode. So I saw Kelly and one of her associates, Matisse, speak at the IABC World Conference in Toronto back in June, and I knew I just had to get her onto this show. Because at the conference, they spoke about accessible, inclusive communication and gave some real insights into why it's so [00:02:00] important, but also some really practical tips on how to make our comms more accessible, which I'm all about the practical tips, right?

[00:02:08] Mel: Now, in one of my previous episodes, I spoke about the say do gap and the importance of your behaviors matching your message. And I think there are a lot of companies and even entrepreneurs and small business owners Who are out there saying they're inclusive and accessible. But when you look at their digital presence and communications, they are anything, but which is the perfect example of that gap in action.

[00:02:31] Mel: And not only does that erode trust, it means you're not reaching a bigger audience than you could be. Now Kelly and Matisse's talk in Toronto really gave me a bit of a kick up the butt to start being more mindful of bringing in ways to make my comms more accessible, particularly on social media. So I'm hoping you'll also be inspired to think more about accessibility as a result of today's episode.

[00:02:55] Mel: Kelly is based in Manitoba in Canada, and is the founder of Squarely [00:03:00] Accessible, a social media marketing consultancy and training organization that specializes in accessibility, content strategy, and digital experience. She's a consultant, trainer, and speaker who's been making online marketing make sense for organizations, non profits, 25 years.

[00:03:19] Mel: Kelly believes that content can't be conversational until it's inclusive. And as the daughter of a mom with physical and cognitive disabilities, Kelly has witnessed firsthand the impact of an inaccessible world. And she wants to affect change to build a more inclusive society. Happily, Squarely Accessible, her business, is a recipient of the 2022 and 2023 Manitoba Accessibility Fund Grant.

[00:03:46] Mel: And Kelly's experience in digital accessibility started in 2007 as a member of an internal Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Working Group Committee, for a leading international financial services [00:04:00] organization. And then she followed that up as a key member of an accessibility for Manitobans act working group.

[00:04:06] Mel: Kelly has been on LinkedIn since 2006 and by her own admission has had too many browser tabs open ever since. Girl... I feel you. Now in today's episode, Kelly shares some great tips on how we can make our comms more accessible, whether it's social media websites or PDFs, even. So, listen out for her great tips and also in the show notes, you'll find a bunch of helpful links she shared as well.

[00:04:30] Mel: And you can find out how to learn more from Kelly herself. So let's get amongst it. Here's Kelly.

[00:04:37] Mel: Well, Kelly, welcome to the Less Chatter More Matter podcast. It's great to have you here.

[00:04:41] Kelly: Oh, thanks for having me Mel. I'm so happy to be here.

[00:04:45] Mel: And you're joining us all the way from Canada today, which I'm very excited about, so thank you so much for making the time around the significant.

[00:04:53] Mel: Time difference between our two great countries.

[00:04:57] Kelly: No problem.

[00:04:58] Mel: Tell us a bit about you. [00:05:00] How did you come to work in, well, firstly, actually tell us a little bit about your business and then how you came to work in that space.

[00:05:07] Kelly: Sure, yeah, my business is called Squarely Accessible, and so I help organizations create accessible web and social media content through training, consulting, and one on one coaching.

[00:05:18] Kelly: And um, I started my business in 2017, originally as Squarely Social, so more focused on particularly helping organizations. Sort of think about how they can use social media differently to build their online communities and grow their audiences and I still do that work, but, um, now accessibility has really become a more forward facing part of my business.

[00:05:41] Mel: Yeah, that's great. So how did you get interested in that field anyway?

[00:05:46] Kelly: For sure. Yeah. I, um, career paths are so funny. They just go in different places. Right. So I started as a technical writer, uh, yeah. And web editor sort of got into content strategy and [00:06:00] user experience and web writing, and then, um, was in a corporate role for a long time, got into social media and then was downsized out of that job in 2017.

[00:06:10] Kelly: And so I started my own business.

[00:06:12] Mel: Yeah. Fantastic. So. What does accessible communication actually mean?

[00:06:19] Kelly: Hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. Like, at the heart of it, to me, accessible social media or accessible content communications is about helping people experience or access communication in a way that works best for them.

[00:06:36] Kelly: So without any, like, predefined Criteria around sort of channels or technology or tools or things like that, but really thinking broadly about reaching the widest audience possible by creating inclusive content.

[00:06:53] Mel: Yeah, fantastic. So when we're talking about inclusive, we're talking about people who might have vision [00:07:00] difficulties or hearing difficulties or, uh, other learning and development issues.

[00:07:05] Mel: Is that right?

[00:07:06] Kelly: Yeah, neurological or physical or cognitive? But I mean, at the heart of it as well, accessible content benefits everyone because there's so much overlap, right? And we forget sometimes that, um, it's interesting. So disability is actually the large world's largest minority group, and it's the only group that you can join and leave at any time.

[00:07:28] Kelly: So, uh, when you think more broadly about disability in terms of permanent situations versus temporary, uh, versus, uh, situational. Right? It can all be different. So as much as it might be somebody who has a hearing difficulty, it could also be me in a loud space or a quiet space and needing a different way to absorb or to experience contact.

[00:07:51] Mel: Yeah. That's a really interesting point. I think, uh, people often forget is that, yeah, as you say, disability can come and go for some people as [00:08:00] well. So, and as you say, then having that, I guess, mindset of being accessible, in your communications does benefit that massive, a broad group of people. So thank you for that.

[00:08:12] Mel: What are some of the most common mistakes you see communicators make when it comes to ensuring their work is accessible and how could they address some of those?

[00:08:22] Kelly: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, there's two sides to that, honestly, because I've been giving that a lot of thought and at the Smallest level, I think there's a misconception that you have to do it all perfectly and write all the time to even start and, uh, there's a real acceptance around progress over perfection and trying a few things. Because sometimes creating accessible content and communications feels more like an exercise in change management, honestly, and so when you're, you know, thinking about, you know, How do I be more inclusive in my content and do something as simple as like [00:09:00] changing your hashtags in social media to use what's called CamelCase or PascalCase, so initial caps because it's easier to read.

[00:09:07] Kelly: It's also easier for people who use screen readers because they'll read them as separate words. So that's one easy thing to start doing. But then at the bigger level, it's like when you leave accessibility to that final finish, After you've gone through, like, all of the approvals and complexity and requirements and things like that around communication, it can force you to end up backtracking or it can feel really heavy there, right?

[00:09:32] Kelly: So, as an example, if you were writing, um, alternative text or description for an image, do you have to get that approved? Do you have to, like, reverse engineer and go back when you're ready to hit publish, right? So, it's sort of both sides of that. Starting points are great places. And when people are personally passionate about inclusion and accessibility, then, uh, that's a really good thing.

[00:09:58] Kelly: But then, you know, from a process [00:10:00] perspective, right? Like, how can you reverse engineer it up so that your starting point includes how can we make this as accessible as possible?

[00:10:07] Mel: Yeah, I love that and, uh, I think as you say, like with anything, it's, you know, start small and try and, and build in a few habits, I suppose, that, you know, become the things that you do naturally anyway.

[00:10:21] Mel: I found that for myself, uh, as you said, CamelCase for hashtags, uh, yeah, it's a pain that, you know, your phone doesn't automatically do that or, you know, those platforms don't, but it only takes another couple of seconds and to get, and then to continuously do that gets into the habit. Which I think is part of this, right?

[00:10:41] Kelly: Well, and so know that you'll remember once and then you'll forget. And then it's just part of a pattern. We begin changing behaviors.

[00:10:49] Mel: Yeah. So we mentioned CamelCase. So let's start with social media. What are some of your top tips for posting to social media channels? [00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Kelly: Well, um, first thing is like using captions on all video content, honestly, um, at a font size that's actually legible that people can read.

[00:11:10] Kelly: So on Instagram, right, like often I see people putting captions in tiny little type in the bottom corner, almost as though they're checking the box that it's there. But if you can't read it, then kind of like, what's the point, right? That would be the first thing. Also use of emojis. Emojis can be really problematic in social, especially if you're using them to replace words.

[00:11:32] Kelly: Then you're leaving that, um, sort of piece to be dependent on being able to see or interpret or understand. When emojis have their own descriptive, um, Characters or words, uh, and may not match your intended use of them. So you don't really know if your message is going to be received in the way that you had intended.

[00:11:52] Kelly: So better to use them more sparingly and leave them at the end instead of trying to like replace words with emojis or take a more casual [00:12:00] tone by using emojis. Um, as much as they're sort of like the love language of social media, I find, uh, just knowing that it can be problematic for, uh, accessibility.

[00:12:12] Mel: And what about images on social media? For example, Instagram is obviously, I guess the one channel that really is image first, whereas the others seem to be more caption first. How do you deal with images?

[00:12:27] Kelly: So you can use what's called alt text or alternative text for images, and it's a description of what that image actually is, and not meant to be like, Something that's repeated in the post copy, but, you know, if you imagine yourself with your, you couldn't see it, how would you describe what's in that image?

[00:12:45] Kelly: So, and it's, it all works differently in the different platforms. Some of them make it more obvious as part of the posting process. Others, you have to go into advanced setting menus and then find alt text from there. So that's one thing that you can start thinking [00:13:00] about right away is how would you describe that image.

[00:13:02] Kelly: And then in addition, you can also include image descriptions in the post copy itself. Uh, can be the same as the alt text, but that way for somebody who isn't using a screen reader, because alt text actually isn't typically visible, um, but it's something screen readers pick up in the background code where an image description would be there.

[00:13:20] Kelly: So sometimes people who have visual disabilities will use more screen magnification and then they need to sort of see that description in a different way.

[00:13:30] Mel: Yeah, that's interesting. I've been putting the image description in the post. I didn't realize there was an alt text feature. On Instagram.

[00:13:39] Kelly: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:40] Kelly: It's under advanced settings and you have to like, yeah, go through a couple of extra steps. Plus if you're using any scheduling tools, Instagram, unfortunately, doesn't let you schedule alt texts. There's only one scheduling tool that lets you do that. So, yeah.

[00:13:54] Mel: Okay. So that's good to know, but also it's a little bit concerning that it's so.

[00:13:59] Mel: I guess [00:14:00] it's not an intuitive process. It's not an easy add on for a channel like Instagram.

[00:14:06] Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Uh,

[00:14:08] Mel: so what about websites? What should we be looking for there?

[00:14:12] Kelly: So with websites, uh, there's a number of different things, but overall, like there's, so there's really great intersection between work around accessibility and search engine optimization and user experience.

[00:14:24] Kelly: And when you think about how you can make your content more accessible, you're actually making it more findable in search. So heading one, as an example, is the major signal to Google that tells, uh, the search engine bots, what's your, what your page content is. And heading structure is also really important in helping people understand the hierarchy of information.

[00:14:44] Kelly: So heading one should always be at the top, right? And subheading of heading one is heading two, and subheading of that is heading three. But sometimes, especially for people who maybe are in smaller companies or have their own business and might be using something like Squarespace and [00:15:00] sort of think about the aesthetic look of headings and not necessarily the structure.

[00:15:04] Kelly: Once you start deviating from that, it's problematic because it doesn't tell people what the structure of the content is. The other really important thing is, uh, descriptive links. So instead of using things like click here or learn more, screen readers will jump from link to link to link. And as well in search, you need more descriptive words to tell the search bots what that page content is about.

[00:15:29] Kelly: So instead of click here, uh, use a more descriptive link title that actually matches. Where, when somebody clicks that link, where is it that they're going to go, um, when they land on that, that next page?

[00:15:42] Mel: So that would be something like, click here to read more about this topic. Something like that.

[00:15:49] Kelly: Right.

[00:15:50] Kelly: Yes. Yeah, and also just, um, like thinking about plain language and using white space. space and trying to really simplify user [00:16:00] interface so that it's in web pages, web content. So that's easier for people to really understand what the action is that you want them to take.

[00:16:07] Mel: Yeah. Okay. And I would assume that that again, the same rules apply with images that you have on your website, having the alt text.

[00:16:16] Mel: In the, in that background as well, works.

[00:16:18] Kelly: Yes, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. There's so many things that are like a crossover between websites and social media or they're in common and less that's actually like specific, but, um, that's a great example of where that applies in both.

[00:16:34] Mel: You mentioned language. So what are some of the, I guess, things we should have in the back of our mind when we're creating copy that is going out to a broad audience, you know, like through a website or through social media that maybe we should be aware of?

[00:16:54] Kelly: Yeah, uh, so thinking about how can you use the simplest form of [00:17:00] language, so plain language, and helping people understand, you know, what you want them to do, and typically, like using active voice as an example, right, tell people what not, or what to do instead of what not to do. Speaking in a positive tone.

[00:17:14] Kelly: So really looking at, like, instead of using the word utilize, maybe use the word use instead. So again, like, really coming back to understanding who your audience is and what's the best way to get the information to them. Using bullets, as an example, helps people sort of. Visually scan information and make a decision about what they want to pay attention to or what's most important to them.

[00:17:37] Mel: Okay, so the other thing that we often use with websites in particular is, well, not often, but I see PDF downloads or we attach them to emails. How does, how do they work with tools like screen readers and what should we be looking out for with PDFs?

[00:17:59] Kelly: Yeah, PDFs. Oh my [00:18:00] gosh. So they fully become a bit of a default, right?

[00:18:03] Kelly: Like when you have something that has a specific format or you have maybe a freebie you want people to download. But unless a PDF has intentionally been made accessible, it's likely not accessible. So there is a whole separate exercise that both involves how you set up the original source file in something like Word or PowerPoint.

[00:18:25] Kelly: And in the conversion to a PDF itself, so you have to go through some separate steps, uh, to make that PDF accessible and it is like, I don't want to overcomplicate it, but it, it, it is a thing, right? Like, you can, if you just assume that because your Word document is accessible, or, you know, it meets the accessibility checker in Microsoft Office, that it results in an accessible PDF, but you know, It usually doesn't and there are extra steps to go through to meet the compliance requirements around PDF.

[00:18:56] Mel: Okay. Wow. Okay. So, because I run [00:19:00] training sessions, so I use PowerPoint and most of the time I PDF afterwards, mostly because of the file size to be able to issue it. So, what might be some of the extra steps I would need to do before I PDF that document?

[00:19:14] Kelly: Yeah, so in the PowerPoint file itself is writing alt text for any images that you're using and using the appropriate heading levels for this, your slide content, uh, would be like a stylistic way to set the PowerPoint file up properly.

[00:19:30] Kelly: And then once you convert it to a PDF, you have to go in and set what's called the reading order. So. Screen readers will, as an example, if you have something that's laid out in a table or in columns, a screen reader might not know how to interpret that information. So through setting that reading order in the PDF, that's part of accessibility.

[00:19:53] Kelly: Will result in a more accessible PDF. There are separate compliance standards as well, [00:20:00] depending on sort of who that PDF is for and how it's going to be distributed. I'll fully admit, I don't know all of the details around creating accessible PDFs, but I do know that reading order is really important and that there are extra steps to go through.

[00:20:15] Mel: Right. Uh, there's a couple of things I wanted to come back to. One was, uh, you mentioned the accessibility checkup in Microsoft Word. What are some other tools that people could use to check the accessibility of their content online, in a Word document? Whatever that looks like.

[00:20:33] Kelly: Yes. Yeah. So there's both like automated ways to check for accessibility and manual ways.

[00:20:39] Kelly: And it's real, like one doesn't substitute for the other, because at the end of the day, accessibility is around creating a good experience for people, um, that might use. Even with the same condition would use technology in different ways or different sets of technology. Uh, but the, the checkers that are in like your, like I say, office [00:21:00] does a pretty good job.

[00:21:01] Kelly: Google docs, unfortunately is less accessible, doesn't have some great automated checkers. Uh, there's an extra plugin that you have to use with Google Docs called Brackle Docs. Uh, that you have to buy separately and use on top of that. Um, but on the web itself you can use free tools. One is called Wave, um, from WebAIM or Web Accessibility in Mind.

[00:21:25] Kelly: And then there's one, there's a Chrome plugin called Lighthouse. That you can run a quick scan to assess the accessibility, and it'll do a content as well as development and design, like looking at the code and the design as well.

[00:21:38] Mel: That's fantastic. And for websites, I know there's some tools that check things like font size and colors and those sorts of things.

[00:21:46] Mel: Do you have any tools in mind around those?

[00:21:49] Kelly: Yes. Yeah. Contra color contrast is one of the biggest accessibility issues on the web today. So, you know, the contrast between two different sets of colors. And so there's a tool called [00:22:00] contrast .Ratio. com, I think is one of them. And you could actually plug in either the RGB or the hex codes for specific.

[00:22:10] Kelly: Fonts to match your brand colors and you want to look for a contrast ratio of 4.5 to 1 to meet what's called The web content accessibility guidelines level 2.1AA which is typically what's in most legislation So I know that's super technical, but that's essentially what you're looking for and you'd be surprised right like Some things that you might just look quickly at a glance and assume have good color contrast that actually don't.

[00:22:37] Kelly: And especially for like presentations that are being used in a big audience and on a big screen, it's really important both the size of the font as well as the color, um, both work in, uh, determining how, how much contrast there is between them. So Always something good to, to go and track and especially when you're using like different colors for [00:23:00] highlighting things on slides or things like that.

[00:23:02] Kelly: I've been surprised by it. I'll often find presenters that use as an example, like a black slide with. top, which can be really problematic again, especially from, um, you know, from, from a distance, things like that. So, um, there's, there's lots of great tools. I'll source some more of them and we can put them in the link in the show notes.

[00:23:22] Kelly: I know contrast ratio is one we're good for.

[00:23:26] Mel: Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Uh, to our listeners, we will put some links in the show notes to some of the tools Kelly has shared, because I think. I know our listeners love these practical tips and also love to investigate the tools that they can use straight away. And speaking of which, where would you suggest people start?

[00:23:43] Mel: What's, what's a good place to start with their comms?

[00:23:50] Kelly: Yeah. So, um, I actually, I've developed a training class called the website and social media content accessibility class, and that's a great place to start, but as well, even [00:24:00] just looking on LinkedIn, right? Like there's lots of people and I'm a huge believer in just like really looking critically at my social media feeds and intentionally diversifying them to follow more people who have lived experience with.

[00:24:15] Kelly: Different disabilities or health conditions, or just again, like, really, thinking about how can I learn more from people whose day to day experience is different than mine. And so, um, that's definitely part of something that I try to do very intentionally. Meryl Evans is awesome. She's quite active on LinkedIn and she does these really great like quick videos about how, as an example, different styles of captions are accessible or not accessible. She's deaf, and she also is just an advocate for, uh, accessible communication, accessibility overall. So, there's, um, yeah, there's, as soon as you do a search, and you start to get more intentional about who you're following, uh, you'll easily [00:25:00] come across some people.

[00:25:01] Kelly: Um, Alexa Heinrich is another person who has a free website called AccessibleSocial.com, so for social media. That's a really great resource to go to.

[00:25:10] Mel: Yeah, that's great. And I actually started following Meryl at, uh, your suggestion or Matisse's suggestion as well. And she is fantastic and the way she communicates is so short and snappy and you just get a picture straight away of like, Oh, okay, that's a simple thing I can do.

[00:25:27] Mel: Straight away to help.

[00:25:29] Mel: Well, Kelly, we are going to move on to the three questions that I ask every guest who comes onto the show. Are you ready for them?

[00:25:38] Kelly: I think I am.

[00:25:41] Mel: Okay. Well, let's find out. Well, the first one is one, what's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:25:53] Kelly: I honestly, I, uh, don't want to like I don't know. I think [00:26:00] accessibility, honestly, is the is the obvious and easy, most significant answer. Right? Like it started for me as something that was really part of my job in the company that I was working for as legislation came in and became personal because my mom had a disability.

[00:26:15] Kelly: Um, so just. Thinking differently about creating accessible communication so that it's accessible by the widest audience possible. So that has really changed, again, like going from just caring personally to really helping organizations start to think differently.

[00:26:36] Mel: It's a good lesson to learn. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:26:46] Kelly: Create accessible content.

[00:26:50] Kelly: Like as practice communicators, we all know that starting with the audience first is like table stakes, right? Like that's our go to and you, you [00:27:00] can't craft a message without knowing. Who it's for and what action you want them to take and what you want them to do with it. So it's interesting to me as somebody who started in technical writing and content strategy that now all those things are making their way into regularized communications and marketing practices.

[00:27:17] Kelly: I think accessibility is one of them, and especially when the organization that you're working for spends a lot of, uh, time and puts out a lot of content around their diversity, equity, and inclusion values, and then doesn't create accessible content, you're sort of like, you're just doing disservice to that message, right?

[00:27:35] Kelly: Like, there's no action behind it, so, uh, to me, I really wish that more people would take the time to learn how and challenge themselves to create more accessible communication.

[00:27:45] Mel: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And we, we talked about that in a previous episode around how your behaviors actually send a message as much as your words do.

[00:27:54] Mel: And that say, do gap just starts to erode trust. When you, you talk about, as you say, [00:28:00] we're inclusive and we're accessible. But we're not actually doing the things.

[00:28:04] Kelly: Yes, yes. And then at the same time, right? Like if your content is accessible, but your procurement process isn't, or your business isn't, or like it's really a full scale picture or your app isn't accessible, so it's really like connecting all those things together and making sure that the messages that you're putting out into the world actually reflect the beliefs and the values behind it.

[00:28:29] Mel: I love that. And final question, who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:28:36] Kelly: Well, I definitely turn to IABC, uh, so International Association of Business Communicators, as we've talked to, and the, the talented people that you know - like yourself and then people that I've gotten to know across Canada and around the world, honestly, so I definitely see that as a primary place to go.

[00:28:57] Kelly: Um, and then just, you know, I learned so much, [00:29:00] even from my clients, from people that are doing similar types of work. So I, uh. I, I feel like, you know, and sort of pointing to a few people directly, it's really that broader pool of knowledge that helps us all.

[00:29:16] Mel: Yeah, I absolutely agree. We, I feel like we just learn every day, don't we?

[00:29:22] Mel: There's something new, there's something else somebody's doing that's interesting or they're trying something new. Oh, there's so much out there in that big, wide world. And so a network like IABC does help us access that too. But even just LinkedIn, I find is a great place to learn.

[00:29:37] Kelly: Oh, a hundred percent.

[00:29:38] Kelly: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, LinkedIn is such a, like, I just love the continuous learning that happens as part of our profession and, um, helping other people just like learn from what we've done, but then also learn from other people too. So you're totally right. Like LinkedIn is just such a go to for that.

[00:29:57] Mel: Well, Kelly, how can people find out more about [00:30:00] you and what you do and access some of your amazing knowledge?

[00:30:05] Kelly: Yeah, thanks Mel. Um, so my website is www. squarelyaccessible. com and I'm super findable on LinkedIn as well and would welcome, you know, conversations with anybody over that, that platform. Like I mentioned, the website and social media content accessibility class is running at the end of the month, at the end of August, and then probably a couple more times before the end of the year.

[00:30:30] Kelly: So, for anybody that wants to dig in a little bit more, I would love to, uh, to, yeah, to have them as part of the class as well.

[00:30:39] Mel: It sounds like something everybody should be doing. So hopefully you'll get a bit of interest for that. Kelly, thank you so much for joining us on the show today and, uh, taking the time out of your day to share some, like, I feel like we just skimmed the surface of some of what, you know. But it's a great starting point, I think, for our listeners to start to think [00:31:00] about.

[00:31:00] Mel: Different channels and the way that we write and the content we put on there and how we manage those channels to make sure they're better for everyone. As you say, the being accessible communication is, is better for everybody because it's audience first. Right?

[00:31:14] Kelly: Yes. Yes. A hundred percent.

[00:31:17] Mel: Awesome. Thanks so much, Kelly.

[00:31:19] Kelly: All right. Thank you, Mel.