Mel: [00:00:00] It's no secret that in our world right now, trust has fallen while polarisation has risen. The 2026 Edelman Trust Barometer found that in the last year alone, there have been notable declines in trust in global businesses, national companies, governments, science and academia, non-government organisations, and even the United Nations.

In some places, particularly Europe and North America, more people now distrust than trust most large institutions. A survey of 33 OECD countries in 2025 found 43% of people reported low or no trust in their national government, compared with 40% who reported high or moderately high trust. At the same time that trust is falling, polarisation is rising.

According to the WTW Political Risk Index covering 200 plus countries in the first half of 2025, effective polarisation, which is the degree to which people see supporters [00:01:00] of opposing parties as hostile, is at an historic high on a global average basis. Another regular survey has measured the extent to which societies are split into hostile political camps, where there are differences that undermine social relationships.

This study has been in effect since 1900. The regional breakdown of this data shows that polarisation has risen sharply across most world regions over the past two decades. And just as businesses are not immune to these forces, neither are individuals. Layer on the impact of AI-driven deepfakes and general AI slop, and it's getting harder and harder to earn the trust of our audiences.

So if you're a leader or you coach leaders, or you look after the brand for your business and you want to take that next step, how can you overcome the trust barrier? Well, that's what my guest today is here to share. Petra Zink is a strategic advisor, keynote speaker and author who works with founders, [00:02:00] executives and leadership teams navigating growth, transformation and what comes next.

Drawing on two decades across business growth, leadership and brand strategy, Petra works with leaders and organisations to turn expertise into influence that people follow, trust and act on, especially in a world where scepticism is high and credibility alone is no longer enough. Petra is the founder of Impact and the author of Trusted Authority and her latest book, ROI on Trust.

Petra's previously been on the show to talk about personal branding, but in this episode, she dives into some of the key findings from her latest book and shares ways we can all build what she calls trust assets that help us communicate in ways that build trust. I won't spoil her gold, so let's get into it.

Here's Petra. Petra, welcome back to Less Chatter, More Matter.

Petra: Thanks so much for having me. Always a fun conversation with you.

Mel: I know. I'm very excited to have you here. Uh, we have interviewed you [00:03:00] before about personal brand, but for people who may not know who you are, shocked, but if they don't- can you tell us a bit about you? Who are you? What do you do? How did you come to develop your expertise?

Petra: For sure. Now, my name is Petra Zink. I'm the founder of Impact with CCC, which I started as a personal brand consultancy nine, almost 10 years ago, and over the last few years it has developed in quite a few different directions.

Um, and what I've learned over the last maybe two or so years is the reason why clients came to me to build their brand, to create more visibility, wasn't necessarily for the current opportunity, for their current role, but to prepare them for what's next, either to step into a bigger role or to step out of corporate and into entrepreneurship.

And this is what got me to this kind of next chapter of my business, preparing leaders and also organisations for what's next. So in a nutshell, what I'm doing is, I always call it a strategic advisor to work with [00:04:00] leaders and teams on helping them get ready for their next chapter.

Mel: Love that. And when we talk about next chapter, I mean, we're, there's a lot going on in the world that is driving- a lot of change for a lot of leaders, right? Like, if I just think about AI, uh, implementation across businesses, it's changing people's roles, but in some cases a lot of roles are now ceasing to exist as well. So there's a lot of people out there who are probably sort of wondering, "Well, yeah, where does this leave me?"

"Where does that take me?" Um, but speaking of chapters, you are here today to tell us about a new book you've got out- ... which I'm super excited about. Let's hold it up to the camera. It's called The ROI On Trust. Tell me- .. what inspired you to write this book?

Petra: Absolutely. Now, just as a comparison, the first book-

Mel: Oh my goodness

Petra: and the second book, half the size- ... quarter of the size. So also a bit of a learning as to people don't necessarily want to read three [00:05:00] novels in one book. Um, it's not a good business case when you spend $52 on postage internationally.

Mel: Mm.

Petra: Anyway, you don't learn from your first book, you definitely learn from your second and third, I guess.

Um, but with that said, the first book was all about the trust authority. How can you become known and visible in your world? How can you become the go-to in your industry? And what I've also realised working with clients over the last few years was that people don't necessarily want to be seen anymore, or it's not as- Mm

important anymore to be visible because with what's ever going on, it's more important to become trusted. Because trust is at an all-time low and skepticism is at an all-time high. And as you also just said, we're going through a lot more change, not tiny change, but ca- uh, change with a capital C, Change.

That means- Mm ... that we can't necessarily predict already what's happening tomorrow. We don't know which roles we are going to end up in two years, three years, and sometimes it's [00:06:00] even walking into a role, by the time we get hired, the role requirements have already changed within two or three months. So what it comes down to is how can you trust yourself that you are able to make it, that you are able to adapt, that you're able to make the right decisions?

Because once you know what actually drives you to make a certain decision, you can create frameworks around it that you can then teach and also showcase others. So the idea of The ROI On Trust is how can you turn trust, which is always so intangible and everyone just throws it out as the most important thing, but nobody tells you how to actually do it and manage it.

How can you turn it into an asset that compounds over time? And it always starts with ourselves. So I've developed- trust assets across five different layers. Three starting with yourself, and one of them is being able to translate your background to new contexts. Like what is the problem that you've consistently solved in different [00:07:00] contexts, and also identifying what made you thrive in those various situations or what didn't do.

So you can then use whatever you read between the lines for this next chapter. So if I've always just worked in finance and I don't want to work in finance anymore, rather than saying there's no other option for me, it's about identifying what makes finance finance. It's highly regulated. Um, it's stakeholder engagement.

It's very complex information, turning that into simple and easier to understand soundbites often. So once we know that, we can then see what other industries or professions are similar to that where I can actually bring in that expertise. So you create your own evidence based on connecting the dots from your past, and this is one of the trust assets that then compound.

The next one would be clarifying your values, because when you know why you make a certain decision, your team can also predict when it comes to decision-making time, which direction you would go. And [00:08:00] unfortunately, there's always the exception that it's conveniently forgotten that our value is integrity, and there's a commercial opportunity.

It's not quite aligned, but it's just convenient to forget that for a second and go that route. There will always be that exception. But the more consistent we can be and also demonstrate how we actually make decisions, the more people trust us. And especially when we have to make more decisions with often less or incomplete information, we need to be able to predict how we actually make decisions, and then we can always redirect if it wasn't quite the right decision.

But as we know, the best decision is making the right decision, the second-best decision is making the wrong decision, and the worst decision is making no decision at all.

Mel: Yes. I love that. And one of the things you mentioned there around, um, you know, building up that trust, I was actually running a course, uh, on Monday uh, talking to people about change communication- ... but how businesses need [00:09:00] to build a bank of trust e- with every change they do, because it makes each change a bit easier. If people trust you, they're more likely to, you know, change when you ask them to change. And but the problem is that trust is so easily lost and so hard to win.

Um, what do you think has driven, uh, we're seeing, as you said, across the world, trust is falling, polarisation is rising. So we've got these two competing forces. What do you think is driving some of that?

Petra: I would say that we have been burned one too many times. Um, and it starts with big institutions who used to be the one go-to for getting information, like media, entertainment, TV.

They gave us the information with a one-way communication. So we had to trust whatever we heard on the news that this was gospel. And then obviously over the last few years, we've used more social media to get our information. And then let's not even start with fake news or AI or [00:10:00] clickbait. It's just what changes the way how we consume information.

New avenues come into the market that now dilutes how we- receive information. And because, you know, there's constantly somebody with RIP and then s- fill in the celebrity name and so forth just to get the clicks, and then it turns out nothing is right anyway, we're just getting so tired of that.

And then add politicians, they promised us that and delivered completely the opposite. So again, this is this constant trust breach. Similar with education, they used to be- ... the highest pinnacle of what makes you credible, and nowadays, um, you can't promise that with a 60, 70, $80,000 degree you can walk into a job.

And at the same time, which was the catalyst to actually writing this in the end, having a PhD was always on a pedestal for me. So I enrolled in one when I was 24, and then I came to Australia, so I never finished it, and this is the one thing [00:11:00] that I started and haven't finished. Anyway, I did my little research and got into the research rabbit hole, and then I got this email out of the blue from where I probably inquired about options, and it said, "No thesis required, no research required.

In seven days or less you can get your title. You just need to basically swipe your credit card." And I thought, "Wow, so this is literally my pinnacle to achieve, and now you can just buy it anyway." So if we've outsourced trust to these institutions that similarly also break the trust with those kind of offers, who can we trust then?

Mm. And it's no one but us.

Mel: Yeah. Yeah, and I think you're right. There's so many factors, isn't there, there that's driving this. Um, it's, it's really hard to escape the-

Petra: Mm ...

Mel: the crap that we see online in particular. Yeah. So given that, and that there is such a low trust, for people who listening to this who, or who are reading your book, who want to build trust in their brand, whether it's their own brand, whether it's a business they work for, [00:12:00] how do you get a baseline of where your current trust level is?

Petra: It's probably the easiest, um, assessment is when you talk to a client or a, um, a friend even, and they come to you for one problem, but then they also ask you about something non-related. This is actually one of the biggest trust signs. So I come to you to say, "Mel, can you help me with crisis communication because company XYZ has completely, uh, hit the fan?"

And then I would say, "Mel, I know that, um, you're also exercising. Which gym would you recommend me to go when I want to do blah, blah, blah?" So I'm now asking you about something completely unrelated to what I actually know you for because I trust you that you give me the right recommendation. And you know, when you have different conversations, you can actually pick up on that, and especially when it's a paid client engagement, when they all of a sudden ask you about something more private or something outside your [00:13:00] expertise, this is actually a massive trust sign.

But also, um, getting referrals and recommendations and having this social proof because, of course, we have to say we are the best, whether we are a business or an individual, and it only goes so far. Whereas if somebody else says, "Look at her, look at him, look at them, amazing," there's a lot more trust in others who are similar to them.

So the whole social proof concept builds trust in others in us.

Mel: Yeah, absolutely. And that is, yeah, as you say, social proof is, uh, one of the most powerful behavioural biases out there. Um, I think, yeah, and this is where sometimes those algorithms work in your favor too, right? That confirmation bias can be, can be quite helpful.

Um, so we've got our baseline. What could we be doing now to start building a bank of trust up?

Petra: It's not one interaction or one action. It's the consistency of taking the right actions consistently. As you said [00:14:00] before, it takes- Not necessarily a long time, but consistency in building the trust, and it takes one wrong action to destroy the trust.

Mm. So even, you know, following through on what we've promised, and it again starts with ourselves. If I say I want to get fit, and then I say, "Oh, but I'm too tired this morning to get up to the gym, I'll do it tomorrow," I'm already breaking my own trust. So if I can't stick to my own promises when I have to bribe myself with my favorite sports drinks or whatever it might be, I, I cannot actually build trust with others when I don't even trust myself that I've got what it takes to get to the gym, put myself into a more senior position, uh, pitch to a big- bigger client, will always stay in this level.

Um- Mm. But then it also comes down to communicating it with others and getting kind of the buy-in, um, on the way. Like, I would say similar with change communication. You don't just say, "Hey, by the way, everything is different tomorrow, and you better comply or you're out." You don't do that. The more you can get [00:15:00] people on the journey and have their buy-in and have, you know, sometimes even, not even their opinion, but just that they had the opportunity to say something, gets a lot more Um, not compliance, but buy-in again.

Uh, don- don't have another word. Um, so yeah, this consistency in knowing how I'm making decisions and then showing how those decisions are made, and often it's also how I'm thinking about making a decision creates a lot more transparency, and with that predictability. And this is how strong brands in the end are also built, whether it's a company brand or a personal brand.

We don't go to McDonald's to get a seven-course sit-down, um, exclusive, uh, dinner. We don't do that. We wanna get in, get the burger, and get out again. This is their brand promise. It's fast food in probably five minutes or less. What is our brand promise, and how can we consistently deliver on it? And then when we switch back to a personal brand, for example, but also a company brand, how can I then show that online and [00:16:00] offline?

Is my LinkedIn profile consistent with when somebody meets me in person? Um, I think one of the biggest compliments would be when people say, "You're exactly like you come across on social media." Because you don't wanna be somebody else. Social media is just one touch point how we can make up our mind whether we like somebody or not, whether we trust them or not, whether we think they're credible or not.

And, you know, especially, um, nowadays, we don't make a decision based on a LinkedIn post or a even, you know, viral reel, but it may be the reason why we do get in touch in the end. Mm. Maybe we met somebody at a conference, and then we just wanna quickly check, are they legit? Are they real? Are they going to screw me over?

Yeah. No, do they actually have a business? And there's some social proof ticking a box. So I reckon, and then I wrap up with this answer, we have-- we outsource a lot more trust into those external signals- ... that also comes from others, which we now also see in recruitment actually, than to just trust this initial [00:17:00] interaction.

Mel: Uh, so it does sound like there's, there's some ti- uh, I guess crossover there with, as you say, like trust, building your own trust, but also building your, your personal brand, which we've spoken about before. But some of those key elements that you mentioned there were like consistency, transparency, authenticity, like ticking those boxes so that, let's say, every time somebody has an interaction with you, it doesn't feel like it's a sales pitch.

It doesn't feel like it's, um, an AI wrote this post, like that sort of thing. It actually feels like a real person, uh, that I could approach and that would be able to help me solve a problem. I'm interested in you just-- it was a bit of a throwaway comment there you just said, but you're seeing it in recruitment.

Can you tell me a bit about that?

Petra: Yes. Now everyone sounds credible these days, so everyone just uses the same tools to create the most amazing resumes. And it might get them actually into the initial interview door, but then when questions come, "Well, tell me a little bit about that." Dun-dun. You know, it's silence because they actually [00:18:00] don't even understand what's on the resume.

It's similar to back in the day where clients outsourced resume writing to professionals but never contextualised or personalised it to them, so they didn't e-even understand what was on their resume, and it's a similar era to AI now. And what I've seen with, um, companies is instead of having just one or two interviews, uh, stages that were normal, there's a lot more, um, assessment-based cr- decision making.

So you need to take a personality test, you need to take a, um, Enneagram test and so forth to also get data from another point. Then there's a lot more scenario-based, um, conversations. So tell me about a time when, or you get this case study and this client, how would you deal with X? And now I'm cu- halving your budget.

What do you do with that? So they are putting people into those positions that are as close to the role or the responsibility that they are walking into to see how they make decisions. And this is where [00:19:00] coming back to this first layer of trust that I'm talking about, when you know how you make decisions, whether you've been in that situation or not, it actually doesn't matter.

You know which value you draw on to make a decision in that moment, and being able to articulate your thought process. Nowadays, the, the chances that we get the, to make the right decision is often quite slim because we just don't know anything. Like, what's your best AI strategy? I don't know

Mel: Could be anything

Petra: And you don't know, and nobody knows.

But I can make an educated decision and follow up on that, and maybe in six months time I realise it wasn't quite the right decision, but at least I can pivot after I've had some data points. But I've made a decision based on my value system of, say, innovation or risk-taking or whatever it might be. So it's, it's small things, but it always compounds, and this is why I'm talking about this, uh, ROI on trust because once you've got a solid trust asset in you, other people can trust [00:20:00] in you, and then you can create a lot bigger assets like a signature framework or content in the end, which is for industry trust, that you have already proven and validated with your team because they already bought into that.

Mel: Yeah. That's... I love that, and it's so interesting seeing this stuff permeate through, um, different realms. You know, not just comms, not just change, not just branding, but also, as you say, recruitment. Um, you and I are both doing post-grad study, and I know from talking to friends who teach at universities too, because of that AI, again, enough to get you maybe through the door sometimes, but universities are turning away from written assessments because they're just getting so much AI slop-

and you can't trust students, unfortunately, to-- that all students will do the right thing. So they are turning more to doing presentations and exams because even if you use AI to help you build your PowerPoint deck, you've still gotta be able to answer the questions that are thrown at you in that moment and present with [00:21:00] confidence.

Um, and it's just really interesting to see those turning points, um, like you said with recruitment. Well, okay, now we're doing much more scenario-based conversations because you cannot trust what's on a piece of paper anymore. Um, and sometimes there's some really obvious signs too that AI wrote this, but that's probably a story for another day.

Yes. Now, we talked a little bit about this already in terms of in the book you talk about trust assets. So you mentioned a couple of them earlier. What are some of the other trust assets that we could look to creating?

Petra: Another trust asset, say for cross-functional trust, because when I walk through all the research that has been done and all the books have been written about trust, cross-functional has never been mentioned.

And if you look at the workplace now, it's all about cross-functional. We conduct more projects than ever before, so we work with a software engineer, we work with a legal person, we work with a marketer as a comms person. So I need to understand [00:22:00] what are their priorities, like what do they get measured on?

Because there's often a conflict because I get measured on X, and you get measured on kind of the opposite from a different team. So I push my agenda because I want to get rewarded and walk over you, and this is where so much, uh, conflict also happens, that teams have different KPIs to work, work towards and don't understand how other teams get rewarded.

So I'm always speaking my language and put my priorities before yours, and of course you're gonna push back. So simply speaking the other person's language and translate what their priorities are and how yours fit into that creates a completely different, um, um, culture and- Mm ... the way how we work together.

Um, but then also who gets the reward? You know, when I'm working in the background and somebody else gets, um, the pat on the back and they were amazing, I'm gonna be frustrated eventually. So simply seeing what do [00:23:00] I need to do to become more visible and be part of the journey to update people on, to give them, you know, short email, uh, summaries and so forth.

There's so many ways how you can be proactive with creating also the trust and getting people on the journey as you walk through the different projects and so forth. And then probably the biggest asset that I've been always a bully on is your own signature framework, which is for industry trust.

Because it's all about condensing your thinking in a one-pager, ideally in a visual that people can follow. Because condensing 10, 20, 30 plus years experience and expertise into three circles or whatever it might be, it requires a lot of thinking to actually get there so other people can understand it.

But if I've never tested it on, say, my team or clients, it's a, it's a guess that it actually resonates with an industry. So the earlier you can test it with your team and say, "This is my decision-making framework, so [00:24:00] you know when I'm not here or I'm... you and my successor, how you would actually be successful in this role."

I can't n- necessarily influence an industry with that because I've never had any proven results, and this comes back to, again, the social proof. Mm. Testing it on smaller groups, seeing if it actually resonates, is the language the right one to use? That creates the asset for industry trust.

Mel: Yeah. And you are the queen of frameworks, so people who- uh, don't follow Petra on LinkedIn, please do, because she has her Framework Fridays, and we get to see her- ... her doodles in her notepad- ... which I love. And I also love a good framework. Um, and, and to that testing point, yeah, like I'll put them out on LinkedIn and be like, "What do you think?" Like, this is a new toy I'm playing with kind of thing, because they're the people I wanna know, does it make sense?

Is it usable? Is it... Those sorts of things. Um, but one last question on this topic, though. You talk, you talk about, you know, building that trust and being proactive in those ways. If you have clients [00:25:00] who come to you and say, "Oh, I just feel really uncomfortable doing that. I feel really uncomfortable speaking up or, or, you know, showing my expertise," or those sorts of things, what advice do you give them?

Petra: As in showing up within the team or on LinkedIn or so, yeah

Mel: Both. Yeah. Both. Yeah. Awesome. Because it can be hard in the team too when you are, you know, there's a lot of big personalities around you and, uh, or the culture doesn't necessarily, um- Mm. You know, it's a very hierarchical culture perhaps where people don't- Yes

speak up.

Petra: Yeah. And to be honest, I've never worked with so many clients being quite toxic cultures than-

Mel: Mm ...

Petra: I have in the last year. And I'm not sure if it's a sign of its time in terms of people feeling more the pressure and everyone is more on the edge and they let it out on others. I don't know.

Mel: Interesting.

Petra: I don't have, you know, the research and the data backing that. It's just my personal experience that I've never had so many very tricky conversations and situations to deal with. So might [00:26:00] be something worth, uh, looking into. But I would say always get a wingman or woman who you can resonate with and run past ideas.

And again, often when somebody else says, "Actually, Mel has got a great idea on blah," and giving you the floor, people are listening a lot more when somebody else kind of introduces you. If you think about, you know, celebrities and so forth, when we see an ad or somebody gets onto a stage like a keynote speaker and they've got to speak, you know, "Mel Loy is the most amazing communicator," blah, blah, blah.

So if somebody else pumps you up, people have already, uh, a higher idea or a perception about you.

Mel: Primed

Petra: their

Mel: thinking.

Petra: So I would... That's right, yes. And get them excited about, "Oh, wow, can't wait to hear from Mel now." And it's similar to that I would recommend in a team because I'm a massive introvert.

It's always hard for me, too, to actually speak up. Uh, whereas if somebody else gives me the floor because I've had already conversations- Mm ... one-on-one, which is very easy for me, it's a [00:27:00] lot easier to get people's, um, attention. And one of the frameworks that I talk about in The Trust Authority on how to build credibility is obviously it's your own, and this is where a framework comes in, and then it's also others.

How can you tap into other people's credibility who are already respected, who've got relationships? Because it just fast-tracks your own credibility when you hang out with them or you associate yourself with them. And then the last one is on the go, meaning how can you get people on the journey whilst you are still figuring things out, and you may be a couple of steps in, like the post-grad stu- studies.

How is it going? What are you still having to figure out? You know, what are some challenges? Without knowing exactly the answer yet. But because you documented, people trust you a lot more because they can resonate with you rather than saying, "Look at me, I'm a gazillionaire, and I've made it all." And, you know, people, it's too far away from their reality, so they can't even relate to you.

And with that, they often don't trust you that you're saying the right thing.

Mel: [00:28:00] Mm. That's really good advice. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, now Petra, I have three questions I ask every guest on the episode, and I have changed those since we last interviewed you, so they're fresh. Are you ready for those?

Petra: Ready,

Mel: Let's go. What is an unexpected or left-of-field way you learnt a valuable lesson about communication?

Petra: That's an interesting question. I reflected back on that, and it's still one of my most embarrassing situations that I totally forgot. Clearly I blacked it out in my life. Um, but I did my triathlon coach, uh, certification years ago, and I came to the tri spot to just did my, um, practical exam, but I came straight from work, so I had, you know, nice attire on.

I was in an office job. And, um, I was fust- flustered because I came a few minutes late and they were already sweeping, and I had to do an hour swimming coaching. Anyway, the head coach pulled me aside and [00:29:00] said, "You're a disgrace to my brand. This is totally unprofessional. You are not showing up in sports gear.

You don't know the lesson ahead." And- Ooh ... I was like, "Oh my God, this is so true." Like, why would I not change in the car quickly? Yeah, I was already late anyway. But it's small things, like even the clothes. I thought because I was professionally dressed, people respect me with that anyway, but it's the wrong context.

Mm. You know, looking amazing in a swimming pool, it's completely off. Like you're not reading the room. Similar to when I come with my talks into a boardroom, also not the right room. Yeah. So communication goes a lot further than just what you say. It's- Mm ... how you show up, how you present yourself, um, and contextualising communication to that situation.

So- Yeah ... yeah.

Mel: It's a great lesson.

Petra: Very embarrassing.

Mel: But a l- a teachable moment, so congrats.

Petra: Yes. And nobody was as, um, straightforward and quite in my face as [00:30:00] he was, but it was a big, you know, shakeup to say, "What are you doing?" Like, take it serious. If you want to become a coach, take that serious. You should have left an hour earlier.

Take a day off, you know? But I didn't think the bigger picture. I was just, like, rushing, doing, doing, and not thinking like a leader.

Mel: Yeah. Gotcha. Trying to. No, it's a great... It's great. It's a great lesson- Horrible lesson ... one we can all learn from. Now, apart from your own book, uh, what is a book or a podcast you love and would recommend to our listeners?

Petra: Um, well, definitely your podcast because you always have- Oh, please ... the most amazing conversations and guests. In terms of other books, I'm still fascinated by 10X Is Easier Than 2X. I've read it now I think- Mm ... three or four times just because it's such a profound difference how we approach a situation or make a decision or think about it, and I'm still very guilty of how can I go from, you know, two to four or two [00:31:00] to five, rather than how can I go from two to 20?

Mel: Yeah.

Petra: I have to challenge all of my beliefs, and I think more than ever we all have to challenge our own beliefs from the past because the new context that we're in is completely different. There might be still some principles that apply, but we need to rethink also how we create value. It's not necessarily us doing the doing, it's about focusing on the outcome, and if we can get the outcome quicker using different tools and shortcuts are more valuable, rather than me physically coding or me physically doing everything.

So it's, um, that would be a book that is just such an evergreen research, um, that I would recommend.

Mel: Love it. 10X rather than 2X. Listen up listeners, go read it. Okay, last question. If you could wave your magic wand and change one thing about communication at work, what would it be?

Petra: Oh, that is a very good question. Given I am working with so many toxic cultures- [00:32:00]

Mel: Mm ...

Petra: I would say

Just be, not even more, uh, what's the word for it? Like when people are constantly on the edge, they say things that they shouldn't be saying and I don't know if the right word is kinder because sometimes you can't be kind, but be more considerate how your communication lands. Mm. Just because you have a bad day and you are a leader doesn't mean that you've got the right to let it out on your team.

This is why you're a leader, to be a buffer of your emotions and whatever pressure comes from above to your team below, and it's a skill to learn.

Mel: Mm.

Petra: So be more considerate. I think that's the- Yeah ... the answer in a nutshell. And

Mel: be self-aware. I think that's part- Mm ... of the problem, isn't it? Are you even aware that your behaviours are having those impacts on the people around you?

And if you are- Yes ... am I doing something about it?

Petra: Yeah. And- That's a good question ... you know, this is why [00:33:00] leaders have so much influence because what they say and do or don't do and don't say sticks in people's minds. So, you know, talking about psychological safety, if I don't know how you make a decision or you flip-flop in a second something else is more convenient, I constantly have my guards up because then I'm thinking, "Are you going to shout at me tomorrow, today, or am I going to be the golden child again?"

I don't know.

Mel: Which version of you am I getting? Yeah.

Petra: Exactly. So I cannot physically perform at my best when I constantly have to try to navigate who you, how you respond.

Mel: Mm. Well, Petra, I really hope you do do a bit of research on these toxic cultures because I'm keen to know- ... where this is coming from as well. Uh, now if people want to get a copy of your new book, find out more about you, what's the best place for them to do that?

Petra: Uh, definitely LinkedIn is still the best way to connect with me and have a chat. Otherwise, the book is available on Amazon and can be ordered, um, yeah, anytime on the web.

Mel: I got my copy.

Petra: Oh, you're the [00:34:00] best. Thank you so much.

Mel: Petra, thank you for joining us again on Less Chatter, More Matter.

Petra: Uh, thanks for having me. Always a pleasure.