Mel: [00:00:00] You've probably heard the saying that reputation is hard to win and easy to lose, and that's more true in business than anywhere else. There's so many risk factors to a brand's reputation, whether it's how they treat their employees, to leadership scandals, product issues, poor customer service, adaptability, and everything in between.

And as professional communicators, we're often thrust to the front lines when something does go wrong, and we need to pick up the pieces and help rebuild a reputation. But what if we weren't just there when things fall apart? What if we were there from the beginning, working with leaders in the business to build a strong foundational reputation that will help everyone weather the storm?

Well, according to today's guest, that's exactly where our value lies as professional communicators. Bonnie Caver is the founder and CEO of Reputation Lighthouse, a change management and reputation consultancy focused on creating, accelerating, and [00:01:00] protecting corporate value. She is also on the board of directors for the Global Alliance for Public Relations and Communication Management, and is a former chair of the International Association of Business Communicators.

Bonnie is an active and passionate advocate for the global communication profession, and it definitely comes across in our conversation today. She's also a global leader in the conversation about the ethical and responsible use of AI. She's a recognised futurist and the author of the forthcoming book, Reputation Currency: Leading With Trust in an AI World.

She's the creator of the Reputation Formula and the Responsible AI Implementation Compass. Her frameworks are guiding leaders worldwide to design reputations that withstand and thrive in an age of intelligent technology. In this episode, Bonnie shares golden insights, like why we should be looking at reputation architecture, not just reputation management, how AI can help us recognise trends for our clients, and how AI [00:02:00] itself is posing reputation risks.

Bonnie is one of the most experienced and talented comms professionals and just generally good humans I have the honour of knowing, and I think after listening to this episode, you'll want to get to know her too. So, without further ado, here's Bonnie Bonnie, welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter.

Bonnie: Thank you for having me. I know it's early morning for you and the end of my day, but what a great time to get together.

Mel: Right. And for our listeners, tell us where are you joining us from today?

Bonnie: I'm in Austin, Texas. Oh, wow. Wish I was with you in, in sunny Brisbane- ... but I'm in Austin.

Mel: Well, I have never been to Austin, but I am keen to visit one day, so, uh-

Bonnie: Let's make it happen ...

Mel: let's make it happen. Let's make it happen. So let's get into it.

Before we actually get into the crux of the conversation, actually, let's tell our listeners a little bit about you. Who are you? What do you do? How did you come to develop your expertise in this space?

Bonnie: Okay. [00:03:00] Um, I am Bonnie Caver, and I s- run a small agency called Reputation Lighthouse. We're 21 years old, and we focus on reputation and change management.

Uh, that's not always been the way we've, we've, uh, evolved. W- you know, as with all communication organisations, we started off as a PR firm. We transferred into strategic communications, and then we really looked at some of the things that, that we really think, um, are impactful to an organisation and, and where we could make some, some tremendous impact.

And so we really focus on helping organisations and leaders create, protect, and accelerate their reputations, and that ends up helping with corporate value.

Mel: Mm.

Bonnie: Wow, how did I get there? Well, I started, my journey started in sports PR. And so, uh, I used to do a ton of crisis. Um, at, at any given moment, you walk into [00:04:00] the office, and there was some crisis that happened overnight, and you had to deal with that among all the other things that, that, that happened.

And I used to always say, "Man, there's gotta be a better way. There's just gotta be a better way than to, to be looking at it from a crisis perspective." When you have no equity, when you have no messaging, when you have... You're not prepared, even with all the best crisis plans, um, you still didn't have that trust equity in some c- in some cases.

Um, you know, oh, well, they're just, you know, jocks. They make these decisions. Oh, you know, all of those kinds of things. Whereas we really started to look at how could you really change that perspec- perspective. And I even started doing that and thinking, "Well, you know, it's all about reputation." Uh, it's about building that equity and that trust, and how do you do more of those things?

How do you build that? Um, uh, intentionally, as you will

Mel: Mm. Uh, well, [00:05:00] it, it marries up nicely with some of what we're going to talk about today, particularly when you talked about the evolving, uh, focus of your business. You know, we've, we've all had to shift and change what we do in comms, and we're about to, or we are going through, I think, one of the biggest shifts...

we've ever seen, um, with AI. But we'll get to that as well, because that has its own reputational risks. But when it comes to reputation, what are some of the biggest risks to businesses that you're seeing?

Bonnie: You know, I think the biggest risk is, is leaving currency on the table. Uh, organisations tend to look at, at reputation as this, um, management thing.

Let's, let's do reputation management. In fact, any time I tell someone that I work in reputation, then within two or three sentences they will introduce me or talk about reputation management to me. And reputation management is a very, very small piece of the reputation [00:06:00] ecosystem, and I think because organisations look at it that way, they look at it as something to manage, they're leaving a lot of currency on the table, which means, um, currency is what you trade upon.

When you have a great reputation, um, you're much more likely to have people buy from you, have them come work for you. They give you the benefit of the doubt in crisis. They trust you. Um, they allow you to come into their communities. When you launch a new product, they just buy the new product because it's comes from you.

Um, when you don't have that reputation currency to trade upon, they look at you s- skeptically. Um, you know, "Let's see if all my friends are going to that restaurant before I'll go to that restaurant." Those kinds of things. And so that's one of the biggest risks that organisations are leaving on the table today, is they're thinking of reputation as reputation management versus architecting it, and here's this opportunity [00:07:00] to architect it within the entire ecosystem.

But it sits in a blind spot for leaders. Most leaders acknowledge that reputation matter over and over and over. We do surveys, and they'll say, "Reputation's one of the most important things that we're gonna focus on this year." But they don't know how to focus on it, right? Mm-hmm. They just like, "Oh, we're gonna put a crisis plan together.

We're gonna make sure that we're managing issues," those kinds of things. Um, they understand instinctively that trust influences stakeholders, yet it's so fragmented within their organisation. They put it under comms, or they put it under marketing, or it's under HR, whatever. But when reputation, uh, is oper- operationalised intentionally instead of an afterthought or just put under one single department, it becomes very powerful, and that's when we call it reputation currency.

And some people on your, on your, uh, on your [00:08:00] podcast may have, have read the Burson research which says that it's, it's worth $7 trillion... It's a $7 trillion economy, reputation. Um, but it's only a $7 trillion economy when you look at it as currency, when you look at it as something of value. Uh, Burson goes on to say that it's, like, uh, a minimum of 5% of corporate value is-

is attributed reputation, and we're leaving that on the table, so that's a big risk. Change in itself is a risk. That's why we got into the change business. Um, in 2020, I got certified in change because... And this was, you know, in the middle of COVID, and I'm like, "It- change that we are going through today, the organisations that are doing it well are building trust, are building equity.

They're catapulting out of this. Those that aren't doing it well may not even be in business after we, after we come out of COVID." So [00:09:00] we started looking at the change practice at that point, and as a reputational risk, and, and how do organisations do things differently to do that? And if we look at it today in today's world with individuals within your organisation going through anywhere from 10 to 12 changes at a time-

um, at one time, just think about your external stakeholders.

Mel: Yeah.

Bonnie: How many changes are your external stakeholders going through? Because every company that they deal with is doing some change. Every place I buy, um, my every- my grocery store is changing. Everything's changing. So these shifting patterns are a, a perfect opportunity to drop the ball and not deliver on promises, and when we aren't consistent, when our consistency shifts, um, when we're not doing the stellar job that we've always done, those patterns are recognised.

And we're not [00:10:00] doing a good job of bringing those stakeholders along, especially our, uh, external stakeholders. And then finally, um, I can't leave out AI as being- ... a huge reputational risk. Um, it's changing the reputation game entirely, um, because it's now one of our stakeholders. And it now, and it's a needy one at that.

It's a needy one at that. And, and it's moving in such real time, it can analyse and interpret the signals from all of your stakeholders, and then it creates a narrative, maybe one you know about, maybe one you don't know is happening. And so those are kind of the risks that we're seeing, and, and in, in fact, it's motivated me to write a book.

I'm halfway through. It'll come out in November. And it really is about reputation as currency and how you lead, uh, with trust in an AI world.

Mel: Well, a book is very exciting. I think we'll have to have you back-

Bonnie: Well, you've done a, you've done a couple, you know.

Mel: Yes, [00:11:00] I know. It's, it's a lot of work, but it's fun also to finally get all those ideas out.

So I think we'll have to have you back on the show when that's, uh, published, chat about that. One thing I want to talk about, which you mentioned, was this idea of reputation architecture. So you said reputation management is one part of that. What else goes into making up your reputation architecture?

Bonnie: So we look at it, um...

We kind of created this formula, and I look at it as, um, this infrastructure of, of creating a living brand, where you're making decisions based on things in your organisation. So we look at things like communication. Yes. Mm-hmm. Um, we look at connections, um, and that's how you're building these relationships with your stakeholders and all of your stakeholders, how you're l- and, you know, listening.

Um, and then we're looking at, um, culture. Do you have the culture that can deliver on, on promises? And then finally, this whole [00:12:00] change piece. And that's wrapped around what most people think of as the management piece or the crisis management piece, and that's the insulation. So if you've got this living brand that you're doing all these things at the heart, you're, you're aligned, your culture's aligned, your connections are aligned, you, you are making decisions based on these pieces, and you're bringing all these pieces together, and then you wrap it around making the right decisions and, and how you're proactive about managing that brand, about communicating that, about moving people along.

When you do have disruption, how are you bringing that disruption? So all of these things sit in the insulation bucket, and that's kind of this thing that wraps around your brand and protects it.

Mel: Yeah. And I think that's a big point, isn't it? Brand in and of itself is- um, it's a trust-building exercise.

It's, uh, because the brand is, uh, think, people think about brand as, oh, it's the colors and the [00:13:00] logos and, and the fonts. And that's part of it, the visual identity, but really it's every touchpoint at, you, a person has with your business. And like you were saying, the relationships piece is so important. And I think, you know, just down to a basic level, like if a customer has a complaint, how well is that managed and dealt with and, you know, do they feel better after dealing with you or worse?

Right. Because that is part of your brand and your reputation. It's those tiny little touchpoints that I think often get missed when we think about reputation and brand.

Bonnie: And so if you think about that in an AI world, um, those are all patterns that are, that are, you know, they're waves that are coming out of your organisation, every one of those brand touchpoints.

And they're great patterns and, and they're not so great patterns. And then there's all these signals that go from those patterns. So I don't have a good re- good, uh, you know, in- I don't have a really good, um, interaction with you after something [00:14:00] happens. You, you know, so then I go write about it. Mm-hmm. I go put it on, on Google.

Then somebody has a good interaction, and they go write on it, and they, they say okay. So now we're looking at AIs taking all of these interactions, both your internal interactions, your external interactions, and it's, it's making a decision. Um, and some of those interactions are real, and some of those interactions are not real because you have bots that are now carrying your narrative.

And AI is making a decision on that, and you might not even be paying attention to those patterns. And a lot of times change is, is interrupting those patterns because of its disruption. And if you're not talking to people and not listening and not adjusting and not aligned, then you have these huge gaps in delivery, and there goes your reputation.

Mel: Yep, 100%. And I was just reading something the other [00:15:00] day about, uh, some of the AI tools, I, I can't remember which one it was exactly, but they were saying they're now starting to mine Reddit for- ... content as well, which, A, we know is not going to be accurate, um, particularly when it, you know, pronounces opinions as facts.

Um, but yeah, like you say, if it's mining tools like Reddit, well then you're getting everybody's opinions, and that is when you're going to see that, you know, I guess a real brand essence come out. I think the other thing to be mindful of is we're often very good at being vocal when we're complaining about something, but we don't see people being as vocal when they've had a great experience.

So I think a lot of that is going to be- skewed to the negative anyway, and we have this negativity bias anyway as humans. So it, it's really interesting to see some of this stuff coming out. Um, before we get more into the AI, what is the role of professional communicators in reputation risk management?

Because I know there are gonna be people listening to this, 'cause I hear it all the time, I'm sure you do, [00:16:00] too, um, like, "I know this is a problem, but leaders don't listen to me," or, you know, "There's only so much I can do," and blah, blah, blah. What is your thinking around that?

Bonnie: You know, I think the role, uh, is now a leadership role.

I- in, in the past it sat there as, you know, you just go monitor the brand. You get a good monitor and you monitor the brand. You give me a crisis plan and we're good. Um, and you know, when you go tell somebody, "Well, I think these things are happening and, and we should pay attention to them," and we're told, "Oh, you're just a glass half empty person, Bonnie."

You know, I've been told that quite a few times. Um, you know, "You're always looking at the negative." Um, but the reality is that, that we need to help our leaders look at this pattern recognition holistically and look at the impact of that, and look at the positive impact and the negative impact. We need to look at how we accelerate those great stories [00:17:00] and, and the interactions that we have and the experiences that we have.

Um, but we need to also do something that I think communication professionals do better than anybody else, and that's cross-function across silos. Mm-hmm. By the very nature of what we do, we have to communicate on one day with the engineers, with the frontline, um, workers, with the desk-less workers, with, um, the CEO.

We are the only people, um, aside from HR, that, that have to have a very small, um, window into them. Communication professionals are dealing with absolutely every stakeholder internally and externally.

Mel: Hmm.

Bonnie: We have to really come to the table with that, because our leaders need that kind of holistic view more than ever.

And we need to think of [00:18:00] listening a little differently. We need to think of listening as pattern recognition, and we need to bring that pattern recognition to our organisations that they're not generally going to see, and they're just gonna say, "Oh, that's just one-off. That's just somebody's, you know, negativity.

Oh, we fixed that problem." Because things are happening in real time, the sooner you can recognise and adjust patterns, the sooner those signals will be positive signals, not negative signals. And it's really important as communication professionals that we're able to do that and look at the organisation holistically, and externally as well.

Mel: Yeah. And I think that's part of the, the pivot that we need to do coming into this new era where, you know, AI is gonna do a lot of the grunt work. Y- You know, all those comms plans and comms and emails and things you used to write, and those key messages you used to put together, some... You know, there's a tool that's gonna help with that.[00:19:00]

Um, it's how we elevate ourselves above, you know, I call it the copywriting monkeys. Um, I'm thinking of that scene in The Simpsons where there's a bunch of monkeys at typewriters. Um, and you know, we've gotta get above that and show our real value in that strategic advisory space. Which kind of brings me to the next question, which is, as we said, we are now in this new era.

AI is being integrated into everything we do. It's moving so fast, like, it's so hard to keep up. Um, what new risks to reputation is that representing? We've already touched on a few of those, but what else are you seeing?

Bonnie: I just think the pure speed, uh, and real time that it sh- it, it can shift narratives, whether you're part of that or not, how AI can analyse and recognise patterns, even wrongly interpreting them.

Mm-hmm. And if you're not part of that voice, if you're not part of that conversation with AI, if you're not feeding [00:20:00] AI and having a two-way conversation with it, then you're going to, to elevate those reputational risk. Um, and the other thing that I think AI does is, is, in our organisations, is we're thinking of it still as tools.

Um, you know, we've just finished, um, uh, with r- my company along with, um, uh, the Centre for Strategic Communications Excellence have just, we're just wrapping up this survey, uh, on responsible AI. And one of the things that's really still coming through, and I'm seeing it even with, um, other AI infrastru- I mean, AI research, is that we're still thinking of it as a tool.

We're still thinking of it as, um, generative AI. And even if we're thinking of it agentic AI, we're still thinking of it as a tool. We're having a real [00:21:00] challenge of understanding it as an infrastructure transformation, and the way we're going to do absolutely everything we do in the next three to five years will change.

The way we purchase, um, the, the, the way we think about interacting with people, um, the things that, that our stakeholders will want from us, it's an infrastructure change Um, and a perfect example of that is I, I've actually created this tool, um, in AI that basically will allow me to look at any industry and forecast the things that are going to change.

Okay. And, um, in that I look at all of the stakeholders and how the stakeholders are going to change. And when I show that to an industry, like one of my favourite is, um, a commercial flooring person told me, "I'm [00:22:00] never going to use AI. AI is not going to impact my organisation. I just put floors down in, in corporate buildings.

That's not gonna change." When I showed him just the way his customers were going to change and the things he was going to have to become of, to keep from being a commodity- Mm ... um, he's like, "Mm, time to sell." But the reality was that, that he wasn't think- he was thinking of it as tools for efficiency, not a complete infrastructure change of how he did absolutely everything and how his customers interacted with him and what his customers wanted from him.

So even the things he was selling, um, wasn't really about selling flooring anymore. It was selling visions and inspiration and, um, you know, [00:23:00] being able to right time supply chains and, you know, a- all these kinds of things that, um, he really hadn't thought of as being a part of the way his new world would exist.

Mel: Yeah. And that's, um... I, I can understand why people are scared of it, because that is very overwhelming.

Bonnie: It is.

Mel: Um, and, you know, we don't like uncertainty. Our brains hate uncertainty, so when we're not sure about something and we haven't got anything to, to go back on and, and, you know, as we know, our brains are prediction machines, right?

So they're trying to pull together pieces of things that have been similar and make a prediction, and we don't necessarily have that in this case. So having something that, um, I feel like in this way, this tool that you're talking about in particular can actually help with some of that sense of uncertainty and go like, well, okay, it's not a crystal ball, but it gives you a better sense of where things might be heading and can actually help alleviate some of that stress around the [00:24:00] unknown.

Um, so I love this tool. I'll have to get you to show me. But- ... um, you also have your own AI model. So can you talk us through that?

Bonnie: Yeah. So just like any agency, we decided where are we gonna be in an AI world. Are we gonna be about tools? Are we gonna be AI native? Are we gonna teach everybody what they should do?

And we kinda went back to what our foundation was, and that- You know, AI, um, needs to, to connect with what we are, and we're about reputation and change management. So where is it going to impact us? And so we started looking at change management models, and although foundationally there were a lot of things that were, were great in change management models, um, that still applied foundationally to AI, um, AI's not linear, and it will not be linear.

So there's not a beginning, and there's not an end. Um, we've got 12 or s- 12 to 30 different AI projects going on at one time. Depending on the [00:25:00] organisation, you might have 500 AI projects going on at the same time. So we start, we created a compass which will do this. It will, it will move in all different directions.

It, you will be at different places at different times, but the things that are really important to it are the vision and the organisational readiness. And we really try to get organisations to sit down and think, what is the... It, it's, it's a design thinking session. What is the future? You know, it's a horizon scanning session.

What's the future of our competition? Um, what's the future of our industry? Where are, where can we thrive? So f- commercial flooring, they were really, really... This company's really known for their customer service, so how can they continue that in an AI world and replicate that? [00:26:00] Because they already have a, a step ahead when everybody else may be commoditising because it's all about price.

How can they differentiate themselves because of this customer service model that they've created, and how can they catapult off of that? So what does that vision look like? And sp- and, and looking at it as an infrastructure, not as, "If I had this, if I had Copilot, I could just do this. I could write better emails."

That's not what we're talking about, right? It's, I mean, nobody is, is changing the world or their business by writing better emails, not even us as communication professionals. That's not changing our world. So how do we look at that? And then we look at the organisational readiness. Just what is the pure capacity to make this kind of change?

And, and then there's strategic planning, and then there's selection. Most people have started at the selection process. They're already playing with tools, they're selecting tools, they're doing projects, but that doesn't mean you can't go back and [00:27:00] look holistically. Then you have the testing, then you have implementation, then you have measurement and evaluation, then you have innovation and growth, but then you're, you're constantly moving in these directions.

The important thing is what sits at the axis And that s- that you are creating an organisation that can move very, very quickly because it communicates, it learns, it relates to its stakeholders, it aligns, and it listens. And if you can create those infrastructure pieces, uh, and create an organisation that holistically does those things, then you can do all of this in multiple places without, uh, change resistance.

Um, you basically create change resilience. Now, that's a tough thing because if you look at organisations, they probably have a few gaps in there in the middle, you know? Um, certainly our, our friends who are artists has done [00:28:00] tons of work around alignment and, and the, the, where organisations have gaps in alignment.

Um, so it's not an easy things to fix, but the sooner we really look at how to fix those things within our organisation, the sooner we'll be able to absolutely hockey stick grow, um, and implement AI in a, in a, a responsible way.

Mel: That's awesome. And, uh, I'm sure I've seen a link to your model somewhere. Are you happy for us to share that with our listeners who- Sure,

Bonnie: sure.

Yeah, it sits on, it sits on our website, and we've got a couple- ... of tools. We have a, a playbook there, and then we've just done a playbook on, um, uh, AI transparency and disclosure as well. Awesome. Um, which, which we're looking at not just, you know, uh, telling people that in my contract that I will use AI, but how do you connect the dots from a reputational perspective and building trust?

Mel: Yeah. Great. That's awesome. Thank you for sharing those tools. So one last question [00:29:00] for the formal section of today's, uh, festivities. If we have some listeners who aren't sure where to start with reputation management, particularly in this AI age, what will you-- what are your top three tips for them?

Bonnie: Begin thinking of it as currency, not as reputation management.

So how do I architect a reputation? What are the things we need to do, um, that will help us accelerate the corporate value? And when you start talking to org- to your leaders about reputation being 5% of the corporate value, and what are you doing about that 5% of the bottom line, then it makes a huge difference.

Um, then it's this, I, I call it the do, say, are alignment. And, and you hear a lot about the do and say alignment, and the are is what are you at the heart of your company? You know, it's, it's what... You know, you can say things and you do things, but they don't always align to what you truly are as a company and what you're able to deliver upon.

So be sure to [00:30:00] look at that are, um, and- ... and that you're aligning to that as well. Um, and then, you know, elev- elevate the pattern monitoring. Um, not, you're, you're not just monitoring the brand- But look internally and externally at all the dimensions of reputation, and that's products and services, innovation, workplace, governance, citizenship, leadership, performance.

So if you look holistically at all those pieces and look at patterns that are off, um, you know, and you can use AI to help you look at these pattern monitoring, um, then you have some things to go have a conversation with your leadership about that our patterns are off and we're going to have some challenges ahead.

We need to communicate through those. And just those three things from a communication standpoint, if, uh, communication professionals, we start thinking a little differently, that gives us more influence, uh, with our leaders. [00:31:00]

Mel: Love that. So risk architecture, do say are, and pattern recognition. Sounds pretty good to me. Um, now Bonnie, we have three questions we ask every guest on the podcast. You ready for those?

Bonnie: Sure.

Mel: All right. What is an unexpected or left-of-field way that you've learned a valuable lesson about communication?

Bonnie: Well, um, I raised two boys. And, um, and I will tell you that why and how and what's in it for me are very important.

Mm-hmm. And the ability to grab their attention and show them impact is extremely important. So I have never had bigger count- communication challenges in my entire life than I had with two boys. And then because of my two boys, I coached first and second grade boys basketball.

Mel: Of course you did.

Bonnie: And that was, um, that was very lear- uh, [00:32:00] a, a huge learning, uh, about how to communicate, um, all the way from what kind of earrings do I have on.

And being told by a little boy, "We don't care about earrings." Know your audience, right? So I mean, just little things, um, that, that they kept me on my toes absolutely every day, and made me really realise that, um, you, you have to be present with your audience, and you have to communicate very differently with all of your audiences.

And I was a little... You know, I had kids and saying, "I know how to communicate." Not at all.

Mel: Not so much, yeah.

Bonnie: Not so much.

Mel: Uh, I actually wrote about this on LinkedIn a little while ago about unexpected ways I've learned about, you know, become a better communicator, and one of them is with, I've got 15 nieces and nephews, and talking to young people because, uh, it, that curse of knowledge, you know, they're not stupid, but [00:33:00] we have the curse of knowledge, and it kind of every time I, you know, say, "Oh, can you do this or do that?"

I have to remind myself, actually, they might not have done this before. So you've gotta step it out, you've gotta be really clear. And like, like your kids, you've gotta be prepared for the hard questions too. Right. Honest questions, actually.

Bonnie: Honest, honest. Very honest.

Mel: Yes. Zero filter. Um, next question: What is a book or podcast you love and would recommend to our listeners?

Bonnie: Well, this podcast, of course.

Mel: Well, naturally.

Bonnie: Of course. Um, but you know, I'm gonna say, um, my friend just published this book, um, and I would think it's, it's, it's out everywhere. Um, I think he's going to be in, in Times Square. His picture is gonna be in Times Square very soon. Um- So what's it called? But it's, uh, Matt Domo, Everybody Wins: The Business Leader's Mission Possible Guide to AI Success.

Ooh. It is a book for every leader, [00:34:00] and especially there are a lot of things in there that, as communication professionals, we're gonna shake our head and say "amen, amen, amen" and then wanna go give it to our leaders.

Mel: Awesome. Yes, just subtly leave it on their desk.

Bonnie: Absolutely.

Mel: Um, last question: If you could wave your magic wand and change one thing about communication at work, what would it be?

Bonnie: That we talk more about business and- Mm ... and how we impact business as communication professionals. That we understand, beyond business acumen, but we understand business goals, uh, business disruption, the things that leaders are going through and the decisions that they're having to make, and we're there as a partner to help them do that.

Mel: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And, uh, one of the things I think we really need to work on, if I think about university level even, um, is having that business element [00:35:00] to the training that we offer for communicators because, um, yeah, I don't know about you, but I did journalism undergra- at undergrad- Mm-hmm

degree and politics and English. So I read a lot of-

Bonnie: Right, right ...

Mel: Shakespeare. Um, which is great but doesn't really help me build business acumen. So, um, that's something that I really am passionate about as well. Well, Bonnie, absolute pleasure having you on the show. I've been wanting to talk to you like this for so long.

If people want to get in touch with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Bonnie: Just look up, look me up on LinkedIn, uh, Bonnie Caver, and I'm there and love to connect with you.

Mel: Absolutely. Bonnie, thank you so much for joining us on Less Chatter, More Matter.

Bonnie: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.