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Mel: Hello there friend, and welcome back to Less Chatter, More Matter, the Communications podcast. It is wonderful to have you joining us Again, my name is Mel Loy, I'll be your host and I'm recording this episode on the Lands of the Yuggera and Turrbal people, here in Meanjin, Brisbane. And today is the third part of a five part series that I've recorded with the very excellent Prina Shahh, and we are taking a little bit of an extension on last week's episode, which was about giving and receiving feedback.

And in today's episode, we are talking about having tough conversations. So in this episode, Prina and I unpack a little bit about why is it that we avoid or dislike these kind of... Conversations, what do they actually look like and how can we approach these in a way that give us the confidence to do this and give us the best chance of getting a successful outcome for everybody?

We cover a lot in this episode, so I won't keep you any longer. Without further ado, here's [00:01:00] Prina. Okay, well, hello everybody and welcome back to our latest episode in a series with Prina Shah and I. I'm Mel Loy, and I'm the host of Less Chatter, More Matter.

Prina: And hello, I am Prina Shahh and I'm the host of The Ways To Change Your Workplace Podcast.

Mel: Ooh. Actually, you know what we should do? Prina is properly introduce ourselves.

So can you tell the audience a little bit about you?

Prina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Mel, I am based in Western Australia, sunny Western Australia. I work globally and I specialise in organisational culture change in human behavior change, and I work with brilliant people. So I work with executives, leaders, and teams.

To make work meaningful as per the title of my book. My book is called Make Work Meaningful, how to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy, and that's what I'm about now. We spend longer in our working day than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be, and that's my mission.

Mel: Mm-hmm. And if you haven't got Prina's book yet, go get it.

It is full [00:02:00] of amazing gold nuggets. Uh, I wish I'd had this book 20 years ago when I first became a leader. Uh, and I'm Mel Loy, uh, if I haven't met you before, and I'm based on the opposite side of the country. I'm over in Brisbane where it's nice and humid 90% of the year. And I have a small agency called Cuttlefish and we are change communication specialists.

So we work with all sorts of businesses all over Australia and around the world when they're going through any type of change. We create the change comm strategies, but we also do a lot of, uh, training as well, and run, run a lot of workshops. Uh, and I've got a couple of books as well. One is Change Isn't Hard, and we'll talk about a bit more about some of the concepts from that in our next episode.

And the other is the same name as this podcast, Less Chatter, More Matter. Uh, and so you can find both of those books on Amazon if you're, if you're book curious.

Prina: They're brilliant books. Yes.

Mel: So today's conversation is about conversations, specifically [00:03:00] challenging ones. And we're not necessarily talking about feedback conversations because we have.

Talked about that at length, but there's a lot of other challenging conversations you are going to have to have as a leader, as a colleague, as a peer, as a friend, as a family member, uh, you know, throughout the course of your life. And we often shy away from these conversations. Why is that, Prina?

Prina: uh, where we are. People pleasers. And, and just the thought of conflict is just, it just gives the majority of us heebie-jeebies, we just want to stay away from it, don't we? We, I don't wanna go there. Most of us are conflict avoidant, uh, and I think that the whole connotation of having a tough conversation is the buildup that we put to it.

I think as well, that just freaks us out, and it just builds up bigger than it is in our heads often. Mm-hmm. What do you, and I think that's the thing. Why are they tough in your opinion?

Mel: Yeah, I think it's exactly what you just said. We prime our own thinking and when we go in thinking it's going to be [00:04:00] hard, then we make it harder for ourselves for one thing.

Uh, but also nobody wants to be the bearer of bad news. And often in business, particularly in that middle management layer, you end up being the messenger a lot of the time. Yep. You don't necessarily have a say in what's happening.

Prina: No.

Speaker: But you're expected to communicate that with your team. And you're really caught in the middle there.

You still have to take a sense of ownership. You don't get away from that. You can't just say, I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot me.

Prina: No,

Mel: you actually do have to take ownership. But it is a really challenging place to be because you know, nobody wants to be that person.

Prina: No.

Speaker: Who shares the bad news, like

Mel: you say.

Prina: No. I love when you talk. I love it when you talk because when you're talking I'm like, notes, notes, notes. So I've got so many ideas. So, um. I'm just the messenger, you know, I'm just the messenger. That statement is said to me a lot from a lot of a leader, and I think you've dealt with that many a time in the brilliant work that you do [00:05:00] as well.

Um, a lot of the time when we have to deliver a tough message or have a tough conversation, there is a concept that affects us, which is really funky in our heads. And that concept is called cognitive dissonance.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: Can you talk to that? I think you might. Yes. More than I do.

Mel: Yeah, well the gen, the basic idea of cognitive, cognitive dissonance is that we have this idea in our head of who we are and what we do versus reality.

And, you know, that can go along political lines ideologically, um, the, you know, we get people who say, oh, I'm, I'm actually really generous person, but then they're asked to donate money to something and, uh, or, you know, it's, it's having this concept of reality that doesn't actually match up with reality essentially.

Prina: So then within the workplace, let's say, and I've had this working in HR back in the day in corporate, imagine the wonderful powers that be will have a brain fart Mel, and we need to communicate [00:06:00] this with the people. And then there's corporate Prina, like breaking sweat. I tell you. And thinking, I don't believe in this message though.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: The work I had to do at that time was the hardest work, Mel. So either, so I had cognitive dissonance in that I didn't believe in that message, but I had to be the messenger off said message. Right. Funky time, funky times. Yeah. And so many leaders are in that position. So I had to try and work my brain out to go from cognitive dissonance to cognitive resonance.

How I did that might be very different to very, uh, you know, to different people. So the way I used to do it was to ask a million questions. Like, okay, so what is this about? Why are we doing this? Tell me why blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. For me to really believe in it, okay. Even if I didn't believe in it, at that stage, when I'd ask my million questions, I would then try and push back and say, well, have you really considered this?

Have you really considered that? But Mel, remembering that I had the positional power and the influence to push back to the executive. You know, not everyone has that. So I would ask our audience, when you do [00:07:00] feel that funky period when you have to have a tough conversation, if you don't believe in it, how can you move yourself from a state of cognitive dissonance to cognitive resonance, first and foremost before you deliver that message?

Because a disingenuous message. When that lands, what happens to your people, Mel, how do they feel? And what? What's the result?

Mel: They see through it. They see through it straight away. And of course they're not gonna buy into it then. So, you know, nothing changes. And we'll probably talk about this more in the next episode around leadership during change.

Yes. But this is a, you know, we live in a world of constant change that is life now.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: That is the workplace. It's not, it's not going away. Change is bigger, faster, more frequent than ever before.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: So you need to learn to, to deal with this and. You know, it's, is it ideal? Absolutely not. But it was never gonna be easy.

Um, and one of the things that we need to think about is, as you say, well, what is my strategy? Yeah. So when I am gonna be faced with [00:08:00] this and I'm being asked to pass on a, a message, you know, maybe it's, there's gonna be redundancies. Maybe something really bad has happened to somebody and you don't really know the details, but you've gotta tell people about it.

Uh, whatever it might be. As you say, I think fact finding is probably the first thing because you know you're gonna be asked questions as well. Yeah. From your team. So you actually need to be prepared to be able to answer them as best you can. Mm-hmm. It is so okay to say you don't know, but commit to finding out.

Mm-hmm. You know, like it's okay. Um, but I think when we talk about tough conversations, let's talk about, well, what are some of these tough conversations? We've talked about redundancies. Um, you know, I've seen a resignation of like a really well liked leader that everybody was shocked by.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: Uh, crisis situations, so crises in a business, we do a lot of crisis comms, we used to do a lot more.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And that can be everything from, you know, a fraud case. Um, you know, executives behaving badly and getting caught out at a Coldplay concert. Uh, it can be, [00:09:00] not naming anyone in particular, um, it can be a crisis of, uh, you know, where the whole business is just kind of falling apart. You could have natural disasters, you could have all sorts of things that are happening.

Prina: And death is in the workplace. Yeah. A

Mel: And I've, I've unfortunately experienced that at a couple of workplaces where we've had people die. Um, in the workplace, it was a construction, um, issue. We had a death at a childcare centre. I've, I've also had to communicate about a death when, um, I was at Queensland Police.

So unfortunately these terrible things happen and to not talk about them is. Worse than saying something because it sent, everything that sends a message is a form of communication. And when you are not talking about the elephant in the room Yep. It sends a message that you don't care.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: Or that you expect nobody else to care.

Yeah. And that is a really bad message to send. It's not good for [00:10:00] your reputation as a leader. It's not good for the reputation of the business, but it certainly doesn't help people to process what is happening. And move through it. Not move on, but move through it.

Prina: Yeah. And it really negatively impacts your organisational culture as well, so.

Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. I'm really tripping back in time now, Mel. Mm-hmm. So back to corporate HR days, corporate Prina, working with this beautiful not-for-profit. I won't name them obviously, but there I am. Happy, smiley, HR person. We've got some change happening. The organisation, I was told by the executive, were ready for change.

Yeah, the people really were not, oh my gosh, the resistance. And I'm doing this punching kind of, uh, hand motion for people who are not watching the video, who are listening. So it was a real combative situation, right? Mm-hmm. In that situation, what I had to do was just to drop all of the judgments. So often you as the leader or the pig in the middle and you don't have that full picture, the executive think what they think and you know, the people are telling you something else [00:11:00] altogether.

So I thought, shit, I've really got to re-strategise my way now. Before we make any kind of change. So the first thing that I did with this beautiful organisation was meet with the people who are really, you know, the big naysayers to understand what's happening, what's up. Mm-hmm. But then what really came out of it really surprised me, Mel, they talked about the trauma of the past change.

They talked about the fact that it hadn't been talked about. Hello. I have never been heard. I've never been listened to. So I sat there, I listened. And a part of it was, yes, complaining about the crap that had been done to them. But then a part of it was, gosh, me really trying to understand from a compassionate perspective of what not to do for this change, right?

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: So that was really important and the fact that people actually were listened to made all of the difference in this tough conversation that I had to have about, well, actually, we're gonna change things nonetheless anyway. Right,

Mel: a hundred percent.

Prina: [00:12:00] But listening to people, and I know you talk a length about this, you really have to listen to your people, not just lip service, but genuinely listen. Only then can you draw that line in the sand. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And be able to have richer conversations. Tough conversations can also be rich, by the way.

Mel: Absolutely. And I think. There's a couple of things outta that and I think what one of the things you alluded to was leading with empathy.

Prina: Yeah, yeah.

Mel: Because it is about understanding, again, I talked about this in the first episode we did, we're talking to human beings, not robots.

Beings are basically just flesh, blood, bone, and emotion. You know, like we are squishy balls of emotion.

Prina: Yes.

Mel: And there's no getting away from that and you to not say anything. I think the other thing is to, when everybody can see. That this person is an issue or this issue is happening over here, you know, it, it allows that to fester and you lose control of the narrative very quickly because where you say [00:13:00] nothing, other voices fill the vacuum.

So you actually do need to be on the front foot and have those courageous, challenging conversations very, very quickly. Um, and so I think that's, you know, a real key to it is a, not only have the conversation. But have it as quickly as you can as well.

Prina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't avoid, don't ignore. And this goes to all sorts of stuff.

So let's say, and this is one of the things that I really deal with, that lens Prina, we've just done the culture survey and the results are awful. I don't wanna talk about it. I don't wanna share them to that leader. I say, tough shit. You are going to share it. And this is gonna create a brilliant conversation.

Now your listening ears are on. Yeah. This is a tough conversation. You've gotta be open to that feedback because feedback's coming your way through, you know, anonymous feedback already. You need to have the conversation about what's going wrong now so that we can rectify it. So you can rectify it. Yeah.

Don't avoid it.

Mel: Yep. It's being honest. Oh yeah. And [00:14:00] I, so often I see, let's, oh, I don't wanna go down too much of a tangent here, but company values.

Prina: Can of worms being opened, right.

Mel: That's probably a whole other conversation. But if you have company values, and most companies do, and they are actually genuine company values, yeah. Then you need to behave in ways that align with those values. And that means, you know, when you don't wanna share the thing, well, sorry, but one of our values is, you know, whatever it is, honesty or it's connection, or it's whatever it is.

Yeah. That's a value that we live by. And so this is part of the way that shows up is being transparent and open and honest about what's working and what's not. Um, you know, if, if you don't, if those values are just lip service, then it's kind of pointless. But everybody also has their own personal values.

Yeah. And that's how we judge each other, you know. Values don't always align between individuals. They never always [00:15:00] will.

Prina: No.

Mel: And not all values are, you know, just because my value I've got these values doesn't mean somebody else's values are wrong. Mm-hmm. And there's all that sort of stuff. But if you have a value, if you truly value transparency and honesty and integrity and all those things, then show me.

Show me. Yeah. You know, uh, and that's like we're talking about earlier, that cognitive dissonance is, um, you know, I say all this stuff, but when it actually comes to the crunch, am I showing up in that way?

Prina: Exactly. I've got a really good quote that I have in my tough conversations workshops, Mel, so, allow me to read it. Okay.

Mel: Please.

Prina: This really hits people hard. Okay. So "delivering a tough message is like throwing a hand grenade. Try as you may. There's no way to throw a hand grenade with tact or to outrun the consequences and keeping it to yourself is no better. Choosing not to deliver the difficult [00:16:00] message is like hanging onto a hand grenade once you've pulled the pin", and this is by Douglas Stone, Bruce Paton and Sheila Heen, what a quote.

Mm-hmm. Right?

Mel: Mm-hmm. Love it.

Prina: Yeah. Yeah. So, but don't, don't let off that bomb out there a hundred percent within yourself. Yeah.

Mel: Yeah. And I think if I can give a personal example, it was uh, one of the corporate roles I was in again, shall remain nameless.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And there was a C-Suite member who behaved badly a lot and she had started to build quite the reputation amongst. Everybody for how poorly she treated people like screaming at people in meetings and pulling people into her room and, and yelling at them. And it was just horrendous. Uh, and complaints had been made, but nothing happened about it. And so it just kept... Kept going and everybody was going, well, we're all talking about this.

We can all see this. She's lost respect from everybody. Why is nobody doing anything about it?

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And that [00:17:00] is when you start to lose trust in senior leadership, you start to lose trust in the company, in the brand, people start to leave 'cause they're like, well, nothing's changing. I've made a complaint.

It only came and backfired on me, whatever it might be. I ended up kind of... Complaining by stealth because, um, I knew that, uh, uh, one of my team members had been berated by this person really badly, very inappropriately. Now, when I think about this particular C-Suite member, I think they felt very threatened.

I think they were always kind of, you know, on edge and being felt like they were being questioned about what they did. So there's probably an underlying self-esteem issue there. But that aside. You don't behave like that. And particularly as a leader, and particularly in a very well paid job as a leader, uh, and when this happened, I was ropable, I was absolutely, so I rented it to my direct leader and he was like, oh, well, maybe we could just do this and, you know, just treat her this way and blah, blah.

Like, [00:18:00] no, that's no accountability there. So I went up to my next manager, the next one. Again, same sort of thing. Well, you know, we've still gotta work with her, so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And to me, this was just so not aligned with my values. It was one of those moments of why will nobody have this conversation?

Yeah. With this person. Yeah. And honestly, I think they're all scared of her, um, for one thing.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And because she seemed to be a protected species for some reason, she, you know, there was that as well.

Prina: Mm-hmm.

Mel: But, so in the end, I sort of went, oh, I need, I, I again did it by stealth. Went to our HR business partner and kind of was like, you know, this has happened, but you know, the person who it happened to didn't really wanna do anything about it and rah, rah rah. So I'm just gonna leave it with you. And I knew full well yeah. The second I mentioned it, she would have to report it.

Prina: Yes.

Mel: And so then she comes to me and goes, you know, I'm gonna have to report that now. I'm like, oh no, I had no idea. Uh, like, you know, it just sometimes you have to do it by stealth. Yes.

And it did have to go up the chain and go [00:19:00] into the, the Chief People Officer, and the Chief People Officer ended up having a conversation with her.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And look, it wasn't long after that that CEO changed and this person was outed anyway.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: But it was one of those situations where nobody was having the tough conversation.

And so this behavior was allowed to fester. And you know, I felt very helpless 'cause I was like, I'm I, this is not aligned with what I want. And, but nobody's stepping up.

Prina: And you had to, so this leads me to having a tough conversation for someone else. Mm. That's freaking hard. So advocating. Oh my gosh, I've had so many examples.

So are you complicit in this thing? And are you're just gonna be, you know, like those three monkeys, I don't this, I don't hear this, I don't speak about it. Or are you gonna be vocal about it and actually do something about it? You clearly chose to do something about it, whereas the others just were scared by this strong personality and just avoid it all together.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: So I think for our audience there as well, like tap into your [00:20:00] values and if you're really getting angry, if this is really affecting you. If it's really negatively affecting the people that report to you as well, something has to be done about it, right?

Mel: Yep.

Prina: Really check in in yourself, right, and have that tough conversation. In relation to someone else or for someone else as well. Because often people don't have the voice as well, right,

Mel: exactly.

Prina: Depending on where they are in the hierarchy of the workplace as well.

Mel: Like you talk about the positional power piece.

Prina: Yeah, yeah. So being an ally, stand up for others, do the right thing as well. I think having those tough conversations is really important. If you see something, say something as goes, the slogan, you know, um, really, really that's about being a decent human 'cause I've got already. Bad story about when people avoided. It's very similar to your situation. So let's talk about Mel's situation.

There was this executive, and Mel was the one who went up to hr, right?

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: I was that HR person, let's say, and I've got a real story about this and I found out about this awful executive and they're tyrannus behaviour towards people. Awful. [00:21:00] Awful. So on that day, the CEO said to me, okay, Prina, we're sacking her.

This is real life story. And Prina come over. Because I want you to walk her out and I want you to have a conversation with the whole office as well. I was like, fuck, really? This is what happens when you avoid something. It really hits the fan and it's awful, and there's this big drama that happens. So this is the result of avoidance.

Okay. Yeah. So then, yeah. Okay. So I had to do the summary dismissal. We had so many facts, you know, so many brilliant Mel type of people came up and actually spoke out. Had to do that. I then had to go to the office and walk this person out and ask them, first off, to just calm down.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: Pack up your desk. You can't take anything with you. You can't save your files or anything. You're out here. And now I was that person who walked them out. I then had to walk in, stand next to the CEO, who was really uncomfortable with a tough conversation. He did not wanna have it, so I had to have that tough conversation to say, [00:22:00] unfortunately, this has happened.

You clearly know why. And I'm very thankful for everyone who spoke up. We do not condone this behaviour and we never will. And we are here for your wellbeing and for your safety, and we want this to be a respectful work culture, you know? Mm-hmm. It's as simple as that. Sometimes just call, a spade a spade, man.

Just call it out. Don't chicken out. Don't chicken out.

Mel: Exactly. Well, and then let's take this to how you approach these conversations. Yeah. Because, uh. You know, I think we've talked about clarity, you know, being clearest to be kind, and that's exactly what you were doing in, in that example there. But what are some other ways we could approach having some of these conversations?

Prina: Okay, so if Mel, I think you're being funky, you know, whatever it might be. First off, ideally I would try and talk to the individual myself if I can. Hi, Mel. I notice you haven't been yourself lately. And I'm gonna give examples. I'm gonna be factual. I'm not gonna be [00:23:00] emotive 'cause I'm gonna be very emotive.

My emotions are very heightened At this end. I'm gonna bring along facts. I noticed last week when you talked over blah, blah, blah, that you really weren't yourself. What's happening? Silence is your friend. That's the other thing as well. I highly recommend a lot of people feel the need to fill the void.

Don't, yeah. What happened, Mel, over to Mel then.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: You know, so I think the first and foremost thing is have the conversation, have the benefit of a doubt. Someone might just be having a crap day.

Mel: Yeah.

Prina: However, if it's this repeat behavior, if it's repeat, repeat, repeat, and no one else is doing anything, as you said in your beautiful, horrible example, someone has to be that person that says something.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. What, what are your thoughts on this in terms of practical ways?

Mel: Yeah. I think if you are comfortable. That you have tried everything you can possibly try.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: Then at some point you have to get, you get to a point where you're like, I'm just hitting my head against a brick wall.

Prina: Yes.

Mel: The brick wall's still there and my [00:24:00] head is bleeding.

Prina: Yep.

Mel: So I think in any situation, any tough situation, you've got three choices. And choice number one is you do nothing. Doing nothing is the path of least resistance. It is. You know, easy or easier in the short term. But as we said, it allows things to fester. It allows things to poor behavior to continue or poor situations.

You know, you might have noticed something you think is a bit dodgy in the workplace, like, oh, that doesn't seem right, like from a fraud perspective, but ah, it's too hard to do anything about it, so I'm just gonna let it be whatever it might be. Right? Maybe you've noticed a policy isn't fair, you know, it's not necessarily a personal thing.

It's sometimes operationally there's something going on. Now again. If you, you can just choose to walk away. That's choice number one. Doesn't solve the problem. Potentially could hurt other people.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: Choice number two is to try to change the situation or the other person. And that's harder to do. It's really hard to change people.

People don't like being changed. They don't like being told what they're doing is wrong. They don't like [00:25:00] to hear that they're not meeting expectations or you know, that somebody thinks they're awful. Um, and it can be really hard to change people's minds on particularly long ideological. Uh, lines as well.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: Um, changing a situation, you know, that that can take quite a bit of effort as well. But depending on what your role is in the organisation, if you're in a massive organisation where there's a, you're just a tiny cog in the big wheel, that's really hard to change that. So option three is to change your approach, and that's the thing you have the most control over.

Prina: Mm-hmm.

Mel: And you can change your approach to this situation by thinking about, okay. If I really want to change what's going on here, I can storm in there and be ranting and raving about the injustices of the world and rah, rah, rah, rah rah. Or I can take an approach that's more likely to get me the response I want.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And know that I tried that. So even if it doesn't result in [00:26:00] something I at least know I gave it a crack. Yes. And I can then choose to walk away. I can choose to then go, I gave it a shot. This isn't the place for me or nothing's gonna happen. I'm just going to see what else I can do differently.

Prina: Try my best.

Mel: But that is where you have the most control, is in that approach to this situation.

Prina: Yeah, and I think to give you even more control in that change your approach is try role playing with a trusted partner. You know, uh, I don't know. You talk at this at length or have a script as well. Sometimes a script. I was like, oh, that's my security blanket.

It's really needed. Sometimes with those tough conversations, it's really, really important. Mm. I'd add another one as well, where organisational cultures are really dodgy or toxic. You know, things are going wrong. I've helped some organisations to really listen from the people because the people have not been talking because of just fear.

Yeah. So some organisations may have a whistleblower line. Can you explain what that is? Mm-hmm. Or whistleblower service, you know?

Mel: Yeah. You can have a whistleblower. Most [00:27:00] organisations of any decent size will have a whistleblower policy and procedure. Okay. And that could include an anonymous email. It could include a, a hotline, um.

And I forget, uh, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's like, under the whistleblower, there's legislation that aligns to this as well.

Prina: Okay.

Mel: Um, but it does have to be taken seriously. Yeah. Uh, and look, again, harking back to our last conversation, not all feedback is created equal. Some of it when you look at it is like, well, no, that was just a performance conversation that wasn't.

Bullying, like, yeah.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: Um, but there is, you know, if there are people who use these in the right way because they've noticed something wrong. So have a look if you can see, and I, I gave this advice to a friend a couple years ago.

Prina: Mm-hmm.

Mel: She found out about some really dodgy stuff going on with a couple of her colleagues. Um, and she didn't feel safe to talk up. So I'm like, well, we look at your company's whistleblower policy. She didn't even know they had one.

And she found it and she went through the whole process and [00:28:00] it did result in these people actually being prosecuted.

Prina: Wow.

Mel: Um, because they had to take it seriously when it comes through that way. Yeah. It can't just be a manager can't just brush it off. It's actually, this is serious, you know, by legislation, it's not good.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: Um, and there were very serious allegations as well, so they had to be investigated. But the, yeah, check, try and find out, does your organisation have a whistleblower policy?

They should have one. And if they do, what are your options within that?

Prina: Yeah, really important. So if you are really stuck and if you feel like, no, I have no help, you still do. Mm. Yeah. There's other things you can do as well. Take it to a high level. So especially if you work within the government setting, and this is, you know, one of my past experiences, Mel, that this is something that happened, which...

I think well done power to the people. So I started in a job the first day I started the CEO hands to me, this anonymous letter, uh, which was sent to the public sector commission, so our umbrella.

Mel: Wow.

Prina: Boss body, right? It was a letter of [00:29:00] complaint from the people. So like, yeah, cool. I've got work to do here.

We clearly have to do a lot of reparation work. The only way is up right. Then, yeah, I addressed it accordingly, um, based on that. But gosh, there's other, other means you can take and remember that you're not alone as well. That's the big thing. A hundred percent.

Mel: I think the other thing too, like we're talking about tough conversations when things are really bad internally.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: But bad things happen externally. And I actually did talk about my, this on my podcast when, um, the Bondi... Beach shooting happened. Yeah. Because people are not immune to what goes on in the outside world. Yeah. You know, the workplace isn't a soundproof bubble.

Prina: No.

Mel: And we live in a world with a 24 hour news cycle. It's on your phones, it's in your face all day, every day.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And you cannot stick your head in the sand and pretend it's not happening just because I'm at work.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: You know, you're the same person at work as you are at home. You have the same brain, the same mind, mind, the same heart, human. Yeah. [00:30:00] You don't just go through a portal and...

You know, morph into another being.

Prina: No.

Mel: Um, and again, saying nothing sends a message that you don't care. Even if you think that, you know, I'm on the other side of the country, why would my people care about this? Of course they're going to care. You know, maybe they know somebody who is involved. Maybe, um, you know, this is such a shocking situation that you'd never expected to happen in this country, and people are feeling really, um, upset by it and all those sorts of things.

When outside world, the outside world is the inside world. You know, there's no such, there's no division.

Prina: I love that. Yes.

Mel: And so you do need to talk about these things in a way that I think is empathetic.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: Acknowledges that people have feelings.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And you know, isn't a tick box episode, episode, it's a, it's a genuine from the heart kind of conversation.

And it's about also, I think giving people options. Yeah. So. You know when we are [00:31:00] grieving, when we're shocked, when there's terrible things happening. Bushfires, cyclones, all those things. People feel, oh, I know. I feel, I can't speak for everybody, but I know a lot of people feel useless, feel helpless. Like, I want to help-

I want to help and I don't know how.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And so give people ways to help give them avenues to do that, whether it's fundraising or volunteering or Hey, here's some links to the Red Cross fundraising page, and we'll match the, we'll match the giving. Or um, you know, we're doing a clothing drive or whatever it might be, help people feel useful because it helps to process that. That grief, it shows you care. Yeah. It shows that you're listening. Um, and so I think you, you do need to have those tough conversations about tough things happening in the world.

Prina: I love what you said. So the outside world is the inside world. Can we just drop the mic there? First clap. If we had sound effects, I'd be adding sound effects.

Mel: Yeah. There we go. I just did it.

Prina: Um, Mel, have you heard of the concept of, um, [00:32:00] the fact that we're all living through a poly crisis? Have you heard of that?

Mel: Oh, no. Tell me more.

Prina: That's what I'm, that's what I'm geeking out on recently, so I have

Mel: Okay.

Prina: Brilliant presenter at a conference I went to recently, a, a psychologist, and she talked about the fact that every single one of us is going through a poly crisis.

Depending on what you're watching on social media, on the news or whatever, you are aligned in different ways to different things in the world, right? Mm-hmm. That funk that happens outside, uh, impacts me and therefore I bring it into the workplace as well. Mm-hmm. So the workplace can't be blind to this completely.

So, so I love the fact that you said that, you know. Saying nothing states that you don't care. Um, but give people ways to help, you know, to so they feel useful so they can process the grief. You know, like you're talking about the recent Bondi, um, attacks that happened mm-hmm. Which are just completely awful and everyone feels it.

Right. And I love the fact that people, they get together. So it's that collective humanity that we all have. Tap [00:33:00] identity into it for your people. Right. Yeah, but then I've been thrown out by this as well, Mel. So depending on the, um, risk aversion of your organisation,

Mel: yes.

Prina: The executive have to work out, or even the board, depending on your stakeholders, you have to work out what topics you are gonna talk to and what you're not gonna talk to.

So one organisation, I'll tell you this controversial thing one organisation I've been working with, there's this massive, um, queer community that they have, which is just gorgeous, right? But this, the people want, you know, more support, more conversation about this. But the executive have decided, no, we're not gonna go into that political landmine landmine that is the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A questioning world. That's a decision they've made.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: But after they made that dis decision, they actually articulated it to the people. Mm-hmm. Now, the CEO did this so beautifully in saying, I am compassionate. I do want the world to be in a better place for all of the people that we're serving. However, from a political [00:34:00] lens, we can't get into this, such as the fact that we can't get into racism or this or that, or whatever else as well.

And this is why, but we support you. If there's any needs that you have, come talk to me directly. Yeah. So avoiding the conversation or you know, that's not gonna work.

Mel: Yes.

Prina: Talk about why you are gonna avoid it, though. That's gonna help you very much so, and your people are gonna respect you and understand you, and then just back the hell off as well.

Mel: Yeah. You can still have these conversations internally. You can still create an inclusive culture.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: But it does bring me to, and I'm keen to get your thoughts on this, go. We live in a more polarised world than ever before. Mm. We have very left-leaning, very right-leaning. Neither is willing to budge.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And again, people might think, oh, that's impact the workplace. Absolutely does. And we're seeing that in some studies coming through, that people, once they find out other people's political persuasion are gonna be less likely to want to work with them and all these sorts of things. Right. Instead of just taking them, well, what's, what's the expertise they bring to this role? Are they a good human? Doesn't matter who they voted for, are they a good [00:35:00] human?

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: So there's that and shows up in those interpersonal relationships. But there will be topics that come up in conversation like, okay, well what's our policy on, um, you know, like you say, like, um, having special interest groups in the organisation.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: And you might get some people going, oh, that's too woke, that's too this. Then the others like, we should absolutely do this, and it's really bad if we don't do this. You know, those sorts of things come up and have, you know, can have really big. Impacts when you have such polarised views. And then we see conversations happening where there's misinformation being spread.

And we're not just talking about on social media. We're not just talking about news cycle. We're talking about in the workplace, misinformation, disinformation being spread because of this polarisation that we're seeing.

Prina: Okay.

Mel: Have you come across any of that or is there some advice you could give to people about if I'm, if I'm hearing this kind of... [00:36:00] diatribe going on, whether it doesn't matter who it's from and, and what it's about, but I'm hearing people sharing information that's not true. Um, that is very, that's only gonna cause further division. How can we tackle that?

Prina: We live in such a different world to when I started working and when you started working, I feel like a dinosaur. 'Cause back in the day, back in the day, Mel, I was taught you don't talk about sex, you don't talk about politics, and you don't talk about religion.

Mel: All off the table now.

Prina: No way. Now everyone talks about any aspects of that, right? Because we are who we are. So the misinformation that comes when we don't talk about it is really, really unhealthy.

So how can you talk about it? You can talk about it, like I said, with that CEO's example about the fact that we're not gonna delve into the detail of this. We're not gonna advocate for this, but I completely support you with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and this is the way that you can. So that's one option.

When we're two woke, I've had, I've had awful stories, [00:37:00] Mel, so you know when there's, um, internal, let's talk about this though. So there's internal people who are specialists within the workforce on, let's say, uh, within Australia. So within diversity and inclusion and equity, so let's say First Nations teams, so aboriginal teams, aboriginals and Torre Strait, uh, Islander teams have to...

Give information and upskilling to the workforce. And then there's other teams who have to, and this is a real example. Let me, lemme just give you a real example actually. Real example. There's beautiful organisation, one beautiful organisation that I work with who are very woke and in a brilliant, beautiful way, they decided to have mandatory courses for every single person within the workforce.

Thousands of employees, by the way. You go through aboriginal awareness training and you go through, um. L-G-B-T-Q-I-A training as well.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: The pushback that they got, it's mandatory. Why [00:38:00] the f do I have to attend this? When people were there, it was like,

Mel: this is when this polarisation shows up, right?

Prina: What is this bullshit? What is this about? You know, all of that kind of stuff. So these internal people who were giving the training felt attacked and they were being attacked. Right. So then I was brought in to upskill these beautiful internal people. Of how to have better conversations, how to facilitate the better conversations.

This is a whole different podcast altogether, but you as an internal expert, if that's your remit, you need to find out what your voice is to talk to that naysayer and say, okay, cool. Why do you think it's an issue? Why do you disagree with this? And then respectfully, work out when to draw that line is as well.

'cause sometimes Mel, I think is really important to listen to the naysayers. So we can respectfully either disagree with them or they might have brilliant things to say as well. Or they might be bringing past trauma, who knows where they're coming from. All of our echo chambers are so different. So I think again, is that curiosity.

Curiosity [00:39:00] aspect, bringing that to every conversation as well, and the big why, and not being defensive, you know? Mm-hmm. So even if I am a brown person delivering training on, you know. Racial awareness, I might get racism towards me. So you have to be ready for that, first and foremost. And these people weren't, unfortunately, they didn't expect it.

Mel: Mm, gotcha.

Prina: Yeah. Yeah. But being ready for your rebuttal as well. And then there's other ways that I've tackled it within the workplace. So within teams, when there's a lot of, um, tough conversations, which are not being had. Mel, this is a really good, fun juicy one. Have you heard of hypothetical debates?

Mel: Yes. Yes. Yep. So where we talk about something that. Hypothetically, yeah. Could happen. Let's split the team. Pros and cons for and against. Yeah,

Prina: exactly. This really brings out people's thinking. So even if I disagree with the thing and I'm in the team for "for", shit, I've gotta make a case for it now. So this is really challenging my brain and my thinking.

For leaders, you can absolutely do this and just try [00:40:00] to break people's molds, you know, try and break their thinking by having hypothetical debates about this. And it takes me and my personal views away from it because, hey, I'm in this group now. I'm in a collective. There's other voices. I can't be a dickhead if that's what I am like, you know, I've gotta tone it down. So that collective debate is quite something as well.

Mel: I love that. I think that's a really good idea because what you've touched on too is consistency bias. So this is another bias we all have where we really value being consistent. So I've said this thing out loud, and even if my thoughts have changed a little bit, I'm still gonna say it.

It's why we continue to vote for the same party a lot of the time when it comes to elections, because we wanna be consistent. You know, I may not actually align as much with that party anymore, but I've always said I'm a left voter. I'm a right voter, so I'm always gonna do that.

Prina: Okay.

Mel: Oftentimes you can challenge that consistency, uh, by having these, you know, like you say, [00:41:00] hypothetical conversations where you go, okay, that's, that's works in this context, but what if this happened?

You know, and that what would you do? But sometimes it's also helping people remove them from the situation, so, exactly. Okay. If this was somebody else telling you this, what would you be saying to them? Yeah. So take them outside of themselves a little bit and go, well, what, what would you be talk saying to them in this situation?

Um, and as you say, curiosity. So, okay. Like instead of jumping to, you know, that's wrong and this is why, it's like, okay, that's an interesting perspective. Can you tell me why you think that? Um, and that also plays a little bit into that illusion of explanatory depth, right? Which where we all think we know more than we do.

So when we start to challenge specifically. Okay, so why do you think that? Oh, where did you hear that piece of news? Oh, that's interesting.

Prina: Ooh.

Mel: Um, and there are ways also when people are saying, you know, hopefully it doesn't happen too often, but you'll come across people who are sprouting some sort of diatribe in their [00:42:00] workplace.

Prina: Okay.

Mel: Um, and there are ways to kind of put them off a little bit and just be like, well that's an interesting thing to say out loud. Ah, why did you think that was okay to say? And you know, just ask the question. I'm interested, why did you think that was okay to say? Yeah. And that's starts to, oh, hmm, uh, backtrack.

Backtrack. Now move on. Foot out of mouth - foot out of mouth! Um, and yeah, and, and this is the thing. You're not gonna win over people with facts. No, doesn't happen. No, no, no. Doesn't happen because the facts are what we choose to believe are facts. Yeah. Uh, and it really is, you know, this polarisation is so much more deep rooted than that.

It's, it's so personal and it's so values driven and context driven, geographically driven that at the end of the day, we're all just human beings. Yeah, and I saw this, I think just to end on this one really interesting few weeks ago, a couple months ago, actually, I'm on threads, so I don't post much on there, but I was just lurking around.

[00:43:00] And this woman had baked a pie, some sort of thing called a water pie. Apparently it was a thing during the depression in the us. She didn't realize it when she posted on Facebook that it automatically posted to threads and it was like, I'm making this water pie, blah, blah, blah. Took a photo. I'm gonna go have a nap.

Anyway, threads went crazy. They're like, Joan, are you okay? Have you come back from your nap? How did the pie go? You know? And everybody was like, ah. Anyway, she got really into it too, and was like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize this happened. So, you know, blah, blah, blah. Here's the recipe. And then, you know, she changed her handle to the grandma of Threads because everyone was like, oh Joan, this is so sweet.

It's a pie, you know, blah, blah, blah. It turned so quickly. Oh, because then somebody went down the rabbit hole of checking her out on Facebook and all sort of stuff.

Prina: Oh.

Mel: And found out she was a Donald Trump supporter.

Prina: Oh gosh. Okay.

Mel: Well, the vitriol that then got thrown at this woman by the same very people who were like, oh, she's so sweet. She made a pie. And it was just such an interesting thing to watch to go from. It's just [00:44:00] a woman who made a pie. She voted for a guy. Some people don't like.

Prina: Wow.

Mel: That changed their entire opinion and how they spoke to her as well. Um, and she's since gone off threads like, understandably, like I'm not a Trump supporter by any means, but I support her right, To bake a pie and talk about it.

Prina: Yeah.

Without being politicised. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Mel: Um, and so it was just such an interesting thing to watch and such an interesting example of how that polarisation. Can show up in really negative ways,

Prina: but that can happen within our workplace. Exactly. Which is reason for us to have these rich conversations.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: And they don't freaking happen enough. And this is me or my high horse now, please. We go from, oh,

Mel: join you on the horse, high horse.

Prina: We go from meeting to meeting to meeting. How often do we have these rich conversations, whether it be from a hypothetical debate format or you know, all of the various other ways we've been talking to really... understand and delve properly into issues [00:45:00] so we can understand each other. And even if you're a Trump supporter, we're still mates because there's still some consistency with us. Mm-hmm. Truth is that we're gonna be working with all sorts of randoms and we have to deal with that, but we have to find a way to connect.

Yeah. And I think the best connections I've had within the workplace have actually been through the tough conversations, Mel,

Mel: a hundred percent. And food.

Prina: Yes. Damn right. Yes. Yes.

Mel: Alright. We have chatted for quite some time on this, but I think it's such an important topic. We've covered a lot of ground. Okay. I guess if there was some, like some key takeaways for people from this conversation, what would they be for you?

Prina: You are not alone. Remember, you can either do nothing. You can try to change the situation or the person or change your approach. Role play script. Remember, if you still feel lost, lost, lost, talk to your people and culture team.

You probably have some kind of whistleblower system. Go find out what it is. My [00:46:00] perspective is not to ignore the conversation, not to be, I'm just the messenger. So if you've got the funk of cognitive dissonance happening within your brain, find out how you can get to a stage of cognitive resonance because your heart will feel so much better.

Mel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think if I'm giving general advice to anybody facing a tough conversation, go into it with empathy. Yeah. Go into it. Understanding that you're talking to human beings that have their own lived experiences, uh, that may be triggered by different things in different ways. So just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter to somebody else that you're talking about.

And I think also, as you say, don't shy away from the conversations because. Silence is ascent. Silence says, A, I don't care. Or B, this behavior is okay here, that our values are actually just lip service. All those sorts of things.

Prina: Mm-hmm.

Mel: So silence is also a message and not having the conversations [00:47:00] just prolongs the pain for a lot of people. And as a leader, um, this is part of your role. You've sometimes just gotta have tough conversations about tough topics and. Again, like we talked about in another episode, a lot of leaders, like something like 80% of leaders are not given any formal training or mentoring when they first step into a leadership role for the first time,

Prina: I wasn't.

Mel: So you are not - neither was I, I was just winging it. You're not expected to know. Go find out. If you don't feel comfortable in having these conversations, then go do some learning. Go do some practice. Talk to somebody who has, is experienced and get their advice. There are ways to learn to have these conversations.

You can do it.

Prina: We believe in you.

Mel: We believe. We believe. Alright, so Prina, we've covered a lot of ground. We have, uh, another topic which is coming up next week, which is leading change. And it's a doozy because there's a lot.... To cover in that one. And you know, some of those are tough [00:48:00] conversations like we just talked about today.

Prina: I know.

Mel: But, uh, yeah, we've got plenty more gold coming your way, everybody. And if there is a topic that you would like Prina and I to cover either together, individually, let us know. We're happy. You know,

Prina: we have a lot to say now. Yeah.

Mel: Love a chat. Yeah.

Prina: Bring it.

Mel: Yes, absolutely. All right. Bye for now.

Prina: Yeah, for now.