Mel: Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Less Chatter More Matter, the communications podcast. I'm your host, Mel Loy, and I'm recording this episode on the lands of the Yuggera and Turrbal people, here in Meanjin, also known as Brisbane. And today is a second episode in a five episode series, all about things related to... people and change and leadership,

and I'm once again joined on this episode by Prina Shah, who is the host of The Ways To Change the Workplace Podcast, and the author of the book Make Work Meaningful, how to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy.

And last week's episode was all about our tips for adapting your communication style for your team, and why that's so important. Today is another episode for leaders, but anybody who works in a team, and it's all about giving and receiving feedback. So in this episode, you'll hear Prina talk about the types of feedback that we need to give and receive, uh, but

also what we need to consider when we do give the [00:01:00] feedback and different types of feedback.

And I'm also going to share my own communication tips when it comes to having those conversations, including a few models that you can use. And understanding how people respond to feedback and how you might need to tailor your communication to that style. So without further ado, here's Prina.

Prina: Hello and welcome to this series of podcasts where my friend Mel Loy talks to you on her podcast, which is called Less Chatter, More Matter. And Prina Shah, my podcast is called Ways to Change Your Workplace, and we're doing a bit of a collaborative effort because I love Mel's brain and I think leadership culture.

Should marry with communication. So here we are today, Mel, it's so good to be talking with you today. Mel, I wanna talk to you about giving and receive, receiving feedback within the workplace.

Mel: Juicy, juicy topic.

Prina: Juicy topic. Many a book has been written about it. Many, uh, uh, lack of sleep has happened over it as well. So, should we [00:02:00] get into it?

Mel: Let's get amongst it.

Prina: Oh, okay. I'm gonna ask you a question. Mm-hmm. Why do you reckon giving feedback is such a frigging issue for many a leader?

Mel: I think it's because at the core of it. We want to be nice. Yes. And we want to be liked. Yes. And we worry that if we give feedback, people will think we are mean or won't like us anymore, will hurt their feelings. And that's a beautiful part of most humans. Right? Humans are generally empathetic, sympathetic people except for psychopaths. Yeah. But for the most part they're, they're fairly empathetic and sympathetic.

Yes. But what that means is that we often back out of... Courageous conversations because we are too scared to upset the apple cart.

Prina: Yeah. Okay. So it's that people pleasing element in us and therefore we just avoid it.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: Um, Mel, I have been talking about this at length with various clients. I know you have as well. Um, I have a whole list of what types of feedback there are within the [00:03:00] workplace. Shall I launch into it?

Mel: Let's do it. I love your list. And everybody should be listening to this very carefully and taking notes.

Prina: My list is endless, I tell you. So this is from my, um, communication skills, um, course that I do do. 'cause I've been thinking about this at length, right? So there's so many types of feedback within the workplace. So we don't even consider Mel. So once I started thinking about this, I thought, oh my gosh, let me reel off the list.

Formal feedback can be in the form of performance reviews. Um, 360 feedback reviews as well, right? Yeah. So your performance reviews every single workplace nowadays pretty much has some form of performance and development planning. Hello? We have to give feedback in there. Please do it more than just once a year though.

Mel: Mm-hmm. Um.

Prina: And then there's informal feedback. Mel and I work together, let's say, so there's day-to-day feedback that we have to give each other. I, if I'm managing Mel, or you know, if Mel is, you know, an employee of mine as well, there's coaching feedback that [00:04:00] we need to give each other on an ongoing basis, and that's guidance and support for each other, for us to improve our skills and our performance.

Obviously there's the one that we all know and love, there's the constructive feedback. That's the one that we really enjoy. So that specific feedback that's clear and focused on our behaviours and actions. There's developmental feedback, uh, so not so great feedback, but you know, stuff to help us to improve. So the intention is always good there.

Uh, there's positive feedback, so, you know, when we need to recognise our people as well, there's so much that we do in terms of acknowledging our people, thanking our people as well. So there's loads in that respect. There's feedback that we need to give our people in terms of reinforcement as well, Mel, so that was a great job today, Mel.

Thank you so much for that. Okay. And then there's negative feedback and this is the one where people really freak out and it's corrective feedback more so. So feedback aimed at addressing performance issues, errors or [00:05:00] areas where improvement is needed. Essentially. Critical feedback; This is feedback that points out shortcomings in areas of weaknesses here and now.

And it has to be done in many an industry, and it has to be done bluntly as well, because sometimes I know you've got industries that are very. Uh, we need to do this, or legal requirements. I've got, um, clients in the medical industry, for example, where that feedback has to be cutthroat. Ideally, there's continuous feedback as well, so real time feedback as we're working on projects and whatever, and it has to be ongoing and consistent.

There's anonymous feedback within the workplace through surveys, culture surveys, engagement surveys, you name it, whatever kind of survey you're hit with. There's often suggestion boxes or you know, ideas, kind of feedback that people require as well. And then the last one, and a very important one as well, no feedback is also feedback of sorts, Mel.

Mel: Oh, yeah.

Prina: So that's a killer. That is a killer. [00:06:00]

Mel: A hundred percent. So I'll just reiterate what those types of feedback. Feedbacks, I guess it's a plural, the types of feedback it are that, uh, you just mentioned. So there's formal feedback, like performance reviews and 360 degree Yeah, informal feedback. So the, the day-to-day stuff, the coaching constructive feedback.

So that's very specific. It's about your development a lot of the time. Got it. Positive feedback. So when we actually acknowledge and recognise people's contributions, I would argue we sometimes don't do that enough either We. Focus on the negative too much. Yeah. Uh, reinforcement of that. Uh, and then negative feedback.

So the corrective or critical feedback that, uh, you know, something's not working and needs to be fixed. Yeah. The continuous feedback, like you say, the real time immediate, this has just happened, we need to fix it. And the anonymous feedback that you talked about, like surveys and suggestion boxes, what I like about the continuous feedback.

Is I think part of the challenge [00:07:00] where people feel worried about giving feedback and, and having that, those conversations is because you haven't created a culture in your workplace where feedback... Is the norm where it's welcomed, it's accepted as part of that every day. It's not just a six month performance review cycle.

It's actually, you know, this culture of, well, we want to improve, we take pride in continuous improvement. And knowing that you can't do that unless you are actively seeking, not just giving, but also seeking feedback. And that to me is a sign of really nice psychological safety that you've got that culture in place.

But I don't think we see that a lot, do we?

Prina: We do not. And uh, I was one of those leaders who really shied away from it. Mm-hmm. Until I realised it's like, no, no, no. It is like the emperor's new clothes. And because I had that positional power, my team was just saying, yeah, great Prina. Whereas I knew things were not great and I needed honest feedback from them, Mel.

Mm-hmm. So I've got a real life example actually. So when I was a leader of a fair few HR [00:08:00] teams, you know, like really, really. A high churning workload, a stressy workload as well. Um, I needed to know if I was being the best boss for them, and they weren't really being completely honest with me. I didn't feel, anyway, so what I created, and I still have this, and I still share this with, you know, anyone 'cause it's tried and tested by me, is a one-to-one meeting planner.

So we'd have a one-to-one once a week. We'd have that conversation. Or if you know, what are you working on? What are your top three priorities for this week? Uh, what do you need help from me? Is there anything that needs to be escalated to me or my boss before anything hits the fan, we need to know first.

And then I added in there, uh, is there any feedback for me? And then my feedback for them. Hmm. Okay. And then whereabouts and anything else, that kind of stuff. Now the employee, the person who reports to me comes prepared with this. So they really have to think about the feedback that they have to give me.

And Mel, it was awkward at first 'cause I'm trying to change a culture and my people are like, [00:09:00] no, everything's great. Like, I knew it wasn't great. Like, so I'm poking and prodding. Like, okay, what about when blah blah happened? Can you gimme feedback in relation to that? So this took, you know, like I'd say three months of poking and prodding.

And then eventually my team actually came to me with honest feedback. Mm. And this is, this is where things really change, right? Because otherwise, if you are that leader who's not receiving feedback and you're only giving it, that's pretty crap. Oh yeah, that is crap. Not cool. Not cool because we need to work out what's working, what's not working for our people as well.

Because we've got that privilege of the positional power and the duty of care to our people as well. We need to know if our... Style, if our work, if whatever that we're doing is landing or not landing as well. Mm. And I'm telling you that one-to-one meeting planner changed my life and it has for a number of people as well.

And I'm happy to share it with anyone. So if you are listening, drop me a message. If you want that one-to-one meeting planner, I'll share the love with you.

Mel: Yeah. And that's an awesome idea. And I think you touched on something there too, around the language we [00:10:00] use with feedback. So the word feedback itself often has quite a negative connotation to it.

And what do you mean by that? So when you know, you ask somebody, have you got any feedback from me? A that's a very closed question. It's a yes or no, right? Yeah, true. Uh, and it's easier to say no. So probably gonna say no. Uh, as opposed to asking what am I doing well that I should keep doing? What haven't I done so well at that I should look at improving or changing?

So open up the conversation, take it away from feedback, take it to. Keep doing stop or change, and that's a really nice way of just getting around that closed question. The other thing is too, when you're giving feedback, especially if it is somebody who's a senior or a peer, instead of saying, can I give you some feedback?

Because again, that's a, a yes or no. Yeah. Uh, but also the word feedback is alarm bells start ringing . It's um, can I give you a bit of advice on that [00:11:00] specific thing? So talk about get specific. I think that's another rule with feedback.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: In general, you know.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: You've gotta be specific so that can be addressed.

Um, but can I give you some. And people are typically happier to take advice. Yeah. The flip side of course, is you can also ask your team for advice. So what advice would you give me to be a better leader or to improve our meetings or to improve the way I communicate?

Prina: Absolutely.

Mel: And again, it's the language.

It's only one word, but gosh, it makes a difference. Like the language you use really matters.

Prina: You know, I did this when I was leading, so asking for advice. So internally, uh, me and my team used to manage culture and leadership development, all of the brilliant, proactive things in HR. Mm-hmm. And one of the things we used to do were, um, pre-mortems.

Mel: Yes.

Prina: Not post-mortems. Pre-mortems. So I'll explain the way we did it in our sense. So let's say I'm running a workshop mail, I'll design the workshop, I'll create it. [00:12:00] Then I'll bring my whole team together. And we had trust, caveat. Yeah, we had trust. Then I'd show them the slides from a slide viewer perspective.

So you see all of the slides on one page, and we put it onto a projector, so you'd see all of the mini slides. Then it would be a case of roast me. And boy did they roast me. Oh my God. Those were the best sessions. But we had the trust, right? Mm-hmm. So I didn't even say, give me advice, like let's rip this to shreds.

Come on people. Come on, come on. We made it fun. So we made it a good fun roast.

Mel: Yeah. Yeah.

Prina: And then, you know, others are open to it as well. So I was the first one to be roasted and handled it. So. You know, so creating that safety. 'cause you know, we have different personalities as well, and some people are more sensitive, and even the sensitive people.

Eventually, as we created the culture of this within our team, it was like, yeah, cool. My turn to be roasted. Come on. People hit me with it. It was just so much fun and that's how we learned from each other. Uh, yeah, as well. It was just so much.

Mel: And as a lead leader, you need to [00:13:00] role model that too.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: 'cause otherwise people will not feel safe. So you've gotta show, Hey, I'm willing to be vulnerable. I'm willing to take the feedback. You know, I'm willing to be put my, you know, I'm not gonna cry about it. Give it, give it to me.

Prina: Exactly.

Mel: Just give it to me straight. Yeah. And I think there was a couple of other things you mentioned when we went through that list of... Types of feedback. Oh yeah. And one was about the positive feedback and it sort of reminded me. Um, so my husband works in a high school. He's, uh, it's a massive high school and he works with special needs kids in a sort of grade seven, grade eight cohort. And they do have a lot of behaviour issues at that particular school.

Um, and it's a very, it's a beautifully multicultural school as well, which is lovely, but. What they're trialing instead of punishment for poor behaviour is, you know, they're using the carrot, not the stick. So, okay. Um, they found out what's important to the students and for some of them it's just being able to go over to the shopping centre at lunchtime to get a juice or a ice, [00:14:00] whatever it is the kids eat these days.

Whether those things, the bubble teas, whatever.

Prina: Yes.

Mel: Um, you know, the kids. Um, and so, you know, when they have done something. Good. And when they've shown that they've changed the behaviour for the better, they're rewarding them. It's not just a, that was great work. It was actually, instead of punishing you, when you do the right thing, you will get a reward.

Prina: Cool.

Mel: When you get do the wrong thing, yeah, you may be punished depending on what you did, but it's more about, well, what would you change if you wanted to get this reward? Um, and it's, it has made a big difference to behaviours there. And I think, you know, that works with adults too. If you just keep... banging on about the negative people's self-esteem just starts going down and down and down, and their performance will go with it. They're not gonna get any better. They're gonna get worse probably.

Prina: No. They're reinforcing anything positive either.

Mel: No, no. So you do need to look for the good stuff that said.

Please avoid the shit sandwich conversations.

Prina: Oh man, I'm glad you let's do this. Can, [00:15:00] can we, can we delve into this one? 'cause this really gives me the shits.

Mel: Yes. Let's talk about the shit sandwich. So for those of you who may not be aware, it's, or it's kiss, kit, kiss, you start off with something nice and fluffy.

I really value everything you bring to the team. Oh, everybody really likes you, but this is bad. But you know what, we all really love you and you know, really glad to have you here and. The result of a conversation like that is, there's no clarity. Like, so am I doing good ? Yeah. But also you're playing into that primacy and recency effect where we tend to be more swayed by what we hear first and last, and we tend to remember what we hear first and last.

So. What's that person gonna take away from that conversation? I'm doing great except for this little thing, but I don't even remember what they said 'cause it was in the middle of the conversation and off we go. Uh, and that's, to me, it's just the worst possible way to deliver feedback when something is not working.

Prina: Versus perfectionist who only, only listen to that middle.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: Which just get part of the sandwich [00:16:00] and just dwell on that. Mm-hmm. Obsess over it and then it will impact your relationship and you as a leader just come across as really disingenuous when you're doing that. 'cause it's such a, pardon the French, but I'm gonna say it.

It's such a head fuck. I've had, I've had many a shit sandwich served to me, and I've just walked out scratching my head thinking, what was that?

Mel: Mm-hmm. Um, reminds me of that Brene Brown quote. Right? To be clear. Is to be kind.

Prina: Boom. Exactly. So, so there's other, I mean, we can go into models and framework models, you know, there's the situation, behaviour impact.

Yeah. But I love another one, Mel, and I'm really simplifying this because every single person, well, most people within the workplace will understand this one. Okay. I'm gonna try it on you. Okay. Uh, it has two, it has two elements. Do you know what STAR stands for in the workplace?

Mel: Uh, I think it relates to it well, I've seen it re used as a comms structure.

Prina: Yeah. Yeah. Tell me.

Mel: Oh, off the top of my head, I don't know. Okay, because I don't use it.

Prina: Lemme tell you. So lot of, lots of people either use it for applying for [00:17:00] jobs or, um, comms professional. So situation, task, action, result. Mel, the situation was blah, blah, blah, your task was to blah, blah, blah. The action you actually did was blah, blah, blah.

And the result, therefore was not the best. Okay, there's that. There's one element. So star, everyone understands star. Then I add ar, alternative result because now I've just gone blah to Mel about the situation, task, action, and result; AR hey Mel, what do you reckon could have been done differently?

AR alternative result. Simple. Simple. But you as a leader are being clear to be kind. Mel has just gone, oh, okay. And now it's Mel's turn to talk. Because the other thing, when we're giving feedback, people really, they panic and they just go, blah, blah, and they don't give the other person a chance to even respond.

Whereas that ar, alternative result enables the other party to how a think and respond.

Mel: That's it. Uh, and I really like the [00:18:00] air model. So, um, again, nice and simple, AIR; So very similar action impact result. Boom. So when this happened, this was the impact. How will we find a result? And I think it's really important.

There's a couple of things here. Number one is sometimes, it's helpful to talk about the role, not the person. So in this role, this role needs to do these things as opposed to. You did not do. You, you. Yeah. Uh, so this role, let's talk about the role, right now, You're not doing these parts of the role as well as we need.

The impact of that is, you know, such and such has to pick up the load over here. Or, uh, you know, this didn't get done on time and so we missed a printing deadline or whatever the impact was.

Prina: Yeah.

Mel: The second, uh, piece around this when we talk to the result is not just providing solutions to the person - this is a coaching moment.

You want people to [00:19:00] think, yes. Okay, so ask them, what are some ways we can address this? What are some solutions that you can come up with. Yeah, so test them, get them to get them to use their brains and not just wait to be handed something on a platter because A, that doesn't help them grow.

No, doesn't help the self-awareness. But B, they don't own it. They don't own the action. And so they're not as invested in it. If you've just told them to do something. Yeah, they need to come up with that themselves and own it because they're much more likely to then take the action. Yeah. So that's why I like the air model 'cause it's nice and simple.

It's just three letters. Uh, and again, you'll notice in both of those examples we use, there's no shit sandwich. It's very clear action impact result; whatever you choose. It's very clear. Yeah. This is what happened. This was the impact. What are you gonna do to fix it?

Prina: Exactly. Exactly. Can I ask you another question now? So we haven't gone into receiving feedback.

Mel: Mm.

Prina: Can we launch into that [00:20:00] part? Yes. Because I think giving feedback is freaking hard, but Receiv reading it is really hard as well.

Mel: A hundred percent.

Prina: What are your thoughts on receiving feedback? 'cause I have loads of thoughts.

Mel: Oh yeah. Well, firstly, I think you need to be aware of yourself. So I have a little model I use. It's a two by two matrix because we're consultants and we love our two by twos, right. Going. Yeah. So the way I see it, there's two key factors that influence how we respond to feedback. And one is your level of self-awareness.

And one is your level of self-esteem. Mm-hmm. So if you have low self-esteem. And low self-awareness, and people give you some feedback, you'll be like, oh my God, I had no idea I was, I knew I was shit. I didn't realise I was that bad. Like it was, you know, it's too hate it. Yeah. It plays into this narrative that people have already got about themselves, and because they're not aware of it, or not aware that they've done something wrong, now they're thinking, well, what else have I done?

I am, you know, and it just. [00:21:00] Spiral. Spiral. Spiral. Spiral, right?

Prina: Oh gosh.

Mel: You have low self-esteem, but high awareness. This is kind of perfectionist territory that you were talking about earlier where everything I do is bad. And this is just, again, reinforcing and I, and they play over the tiny little moments, every tiny little moment.

And so when you get into a conversation with that person, it's like, I knew it. I knew I was shit at that, and I knew this, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you've got what I call Donald Trump syndrome, which is low self-awareness, but high self-esteem. I think you call them the brilliant jerks.

Yes. So, although they're not always brilliant in this case, but um, I think I'm great. And the response to feedback is often along the lines of, no, that can't be right. Oh, it's just, it's combative, it's defensive. Well, such and such did this, and then they did this, you know, it's deflection as well. Uh, you do this, it goes into gaslighting territory, so it's very defensive.

They [00:22:00] take no ownership because they just have such low self-awareness, but thinks so much of themselves. And so then you get where somebody's very self-aware, but also has very good self-esteem, and they typically take feedback on, as with gratitude. You're like, oh yeah, I thought I wasn't doing as well with that, and I really want to get better. Thanks for sharing that with me. I think we all know people who fit into those boxes.

Prina: Yeah, yeah.

Mel: And we have an inkling and we probably have an inkling of where we are as well. And it does change, you know, I think back to when I was, you know, a baby corporate person who... Undiagnosed A DH, ADHD or just add, but not an excuse.

No, uh, but I took everything personally. I didn't take it with gratitude. I took it as, I must be really bad at this and I'm so bad at this. And then I'd get defensive and you know, these days it's like, tell me what else I can do better, because I don't know if you don't tell me. But that took time and maturity to get to that.

Mm-hmm. And sometimes you're lucky with, I [00:23:00] think with the younger staff, you might come across some who are a bit, you know, old souls. Have been, you know, have built up a little bit of that, um, I don't wanna say resilience, but more adaptability, you know, they're willing to problem solve and those sorts of things.

Yeah. But typically younger staff, I mean, just think of it biologically, frontal lobes are not developed when you're in your early twenties, especially with boys. And so it's more likely you're going to get some of those more negative responses than perhaps an older person who's, you know, done this all before and is used to that culture.

Um, but that's kind of how I see it. And I think part of. Receiving feedback is being really self-aware of your own mental state of, you know, what you want to get out of that. Having a mindset of learning, not of I'm doing this poorly.

Prina: Exactly. Um, have you come across Kubler Ross's five stages of grief?

Mel: Yes. Yes.

Prina: So, self-awareness 1 0 1. So this is one thing that I bring about to people [00:24:00] when, um, especially in receiving feedback Mel.. So when you receive feedback, it's five stages of grief, but we do grieve when we're giving feedback. This is us, and we're giving feedback to change.

So we're grieving this middle part of us who's like, what the hell just happened? Right? So I use Kubler Ross' beautiful words. To apply to odds receiving feedback. Mm. So do you go into shock and denial, anger? Do you start bargaining? Do you fall into a funk and get depressed, or do you jump into acceptance?

And this really talks to this beautiful quadrant that you know, Mel just talked to as well. It really marries with all of the work that you just talked to. So self-awareness is really important to do the hard work on yourself first. Right? And yeah, when I was young, I was super ambitious. I was like, oh my God, I wanna prove to everyone that I'm okay.

So when feedback was given to me, it was extra hard, extra hard. Mm-hmm. Mel, we haven't even gone into this, and I think this might be a different episode altogether, but thank you for sharing about you being, [00:25:00] uh, undiagnosed at that stage. But we haven't talked about neurodiversity within the workplace whatsoever.

So one aspect of neurodiversity within the workplace, within society as well, and I'm learning as well, is that, um, the concept of RSD.

Mel: Yes. Which is a, it's very common with people with A DHD and autism. Yeah.

Prina: Can you please talk to that? 'cause you probably have more.

Mel: Yeah. So it's rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, so it tends to be that we take rejection much more. Um, I guess personally, and we take it really hard compared to what other people would, um, I don't know whether there's a lot of research around why that is the case. You know, how are the neurons firing or not firing in this case? No, no. There's a lot of research that's still yet to be done, especially with women, just quietly.

Um, but it is one of those things, and like you said, and in a previous episode when we talked about tailoring your communication, this marries into this quite nicely that if you know you have team members who are neurodiverse [00:26:00] or if you know yourself that you are, and that there could be, you know, some of that sensitivity around rejection, then you do actually need to take a slightly different approach and explain why you're giving the feedback. I think that's really important to say, and Adam Grant has a great line around this. He's like it. It's something like, I'm telling you this because I have high expectations of you and I think you can meet them.

Oh, and I really love that line, and I think,

Prina: gorgeous.

Mel: This is about going, I believe in you. I believe in you. This is why I'm, I'm going to tell you this because I think you can do even better. And I think if you give that why, the reason why,

Prina: gorgeous,

Mel: then it can help sort of go, oh, this is like, set the frame in the mind. Prime the thinking. This is a learning moment. It's not a rejection moment.

Prina: Yeah. So going back to neurodiversity, not everyone comes out within the workplaces on, that's completely up to you.

Mel: Oh, yeah, totally.

Prina: But, but for the people who do come out, um, you know, [00:27:00] I've had some clients who have come out only to their manager. Mm-hmm. Just so their manager knows about what their needs are. Right?

Mel: Yep.

Prina: And, and then therefore the manager and the employee talk about, okay, so tell me how I can best work with you and for you. And in a past episode of ours, Mel, I talked to the user manual of me and creating that. I think it's really important for anyone, especially who's someone who's neurodivergent especially to have that user manual of me.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: Because that just enriches your work life even more and you freaking deserve it as well.

Mel: That's it. And I think, think. What is important in that is, uh, you know, as you said, what's the best way to gimme feedback? Maybe that's part of what you put in that manual. Yeah. But making sure everybody does it so it's not just in neurodiverse team members, they don't feel singled out.

Prina: No, no, no.

Mel: This is for everybody and yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important too.

Prina: Yeah. Um, another point I wanna talk about when we're receiving feedback as well is that obviously, you know, the other party has taken time and they've taken time to really think about you. You've [00:28:00] not had the opportunity to process and to think about stuff.

That's a good point. And sometimes people feel cornered in that conversation, Mel, and people forget. So please let this be one gold nugget for you. You don't have to respond immediately. You could even say Mel. Thank you so much for that feedback. That's a lot for me to take. I just need a day to process it.

Can we reconvene tomorrow and ha and have this chat again tomorrow? You know, people just freak out and it's like deer in headlights, you know? But no, you don't have to respond right now. Let things settle. If there's a lot of emotion bubbling away or you are funking out ala the Kubler Ross model.

Mm-hmm. Take time out. Yeah, that's well within your rights. Okay. So you are not, you're not coordinated. Please remember that.

Mel: Yeah, that's the big point. I think that's a really good point. And you know that's a good stage around the, when we talk about what's the way forward, you know, that can actually be, as a manager, a good break to go.

So what I want you to do is go away 24, 48 hours, come up with some solutions and then let's come back together and talk about it.

Prina: Perfect.

Mel: [00:29:00] So then you've given them time to process to think. Yeah. Come up with some ideas, you've got some accountability 'cause you're meeting again in a couple of days. So it keeps the conversation, you know, it's not just a set and forget keeps the conversation going.

So, yeah, I love that idea. Prina, like, give space. I think that's so important.

Prina: And Mel, I love, you know, the quadrant, I'm going back to that again. You broke my brain with it in a positive, way. Um, it really, it reminded me of the way that we talk to ourselves. Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And this, this is homework for, for, for our audience, for our listeners.

This is a lot of work I've done on myself. Have you heard about the concept of transactional analysis?

Mel: I have not. That's two big words. Let's put 'em together.

Prina: Very psychological, and I'm not gonna go into detail about it. Right. In your brain, you have voices, which are often your parents' voices. Mm.

Mel: So they have a lot to be, to answer for,

Prina: I need a whiteboard for this one. I need a whiteboard. So in your brain, the, the internal voice you have [00:30:00] is either as a parent, an adult, or a child. Are you the punishing parent or are you the forgiving, like, uh, enthusiastic parent who's just motivating as the adult? Are you the healthy adult in your own inner voice? Or are you the negative adult, you know, like, oh, I hate myself.

Of course Mel said that. Therefore, it must be right as the inner voice child in your head, is it the playful, joyful child who's just learning, absorbing, you know, everything? Or is it that scared child? Right? So. Do the work people, that's for you to go research and Google because that's individual to every single one of us, and it will break your brain if you want to go into detail off it.

Uh, it's amazing. I love that. So I think that self-talk that you have for yourself is really important in the way that you show up to places. And definitely in the way that you give and receive feedback.

Mel: A hundred percent. I think there's two other things we should consider here. And I know we've, we could talk forever about [00:31:00] feedback, so I don't wanna go on more tangents, but I'm going on another tangent.

Do, um, one is like, like you were just saying about, you know, your in a voice as well. Also consider that not all feedback is valid.

Prina: Hello? Yes.

Mel: Yes. So when you are, if you know yourself to be a very sensitive person to feedback that you know your self-esteem is. Isn't great and those sorts of things as well.

It can be easy to take everything seriously, but sometimes not all feedback is valid. If it's just one person saying something and they're not really a person that you trust or that has a lot of respect in the workplace and if they actually don't have the insights into what they're saying or they can't be very specific about what the problem is.

Yeah, you don't have to take that on board necessarily. Like there may be a kernel of truth in there somewhere that you have to think about. Yeah. But not all feedback is created equal,

Prina: huge lesson to end with. I think that. Mm. I think so.

Mel: The other thing I want to point out is, [00:32:00] um, when you are giving feedback of measuring performance mm-hmm.

Be aware of the measures that you use when you're measuring performance too. Tell me more. Tell me more. Um, and I see this, okay. Example I work in, you know, when I'm not doing what I do, I teach group fitness class. Yeah. And the gym change shall remain nameless, but you know, at the end of each class, we write down how many people were in that class, and you are given a performance review.

I think it's every six months or something where they go through your class numbers and if they're above 50%, you are, you know, you get this, it was above 60, you get this, blah, blah, blah. Um, the challenging part of that is that if you've covered for somebody else and their class numbers are low, that counts towards yours, even if you've just filled in for them.

Yeah. That's a whole thing. The challenge with numbers is that it can inspire people to be fraudulent in their numbers. Yeah. Because if you know that your bonus [00:33:00] relates solely to a number, that's incentive to lie. It's incentive to do the wrong thing. We saw that in the States with like the Wells Fargo, where they were told, you know, you need to sign up X number of customers. They were signing up people to multiple accounts who had no idea they'd been signed up to multiple accounts. Um, we saw this yeah, in multiple other places as well, where the measures that we use, if they stop being about an outcome and start just being about an output.

You know, you need to make so many phone calls a day to customers and you make this, who said they're any good? Who said they've actually given you? Have they resulted in more sales? If not, it's actually not the number that's the problem. So think about when you are having these performance conversations.

Am I actually having a performance conversation based on the right metric? Or is this some, is there something more that we need to be thinking about as well? And that can be hard when you're part of a big conglomerate where they set your KPIs and rah, rah, rah. It's hard to challenge that status quo.[00:34:00]

Yeah. But it is possible to create measures that are about the things that actually matter. Like, you know, are you helping to achieve an outcome for your customers? Are they happy? With what you're doing, how you treat other people in your team, that should be a metric. Mm-hmm. How you treat other people should actually be something that's important.

Uh, you know, are you telling, are you, are you actually doing what you're meant to be doing when you're, when you're there and showing up on time and being a team player? Like those things, they're harder to quantify. But they are so much more important than how many phone calls you made or how many people turned up to a class.

If they left happy, if they wanna come back, that's a pretty good sign from a longevity point of view of the customer.

Prina: Yeah. Brilliant point there. Brilliant point there. Another point, well we're digressing. Yes, but it's still on track. Still on track. Like these performance systems have created this competition between me and Mel now.

Mm. That's the other [00:35:00] thing that these performance systems do, which is really, really unhealthy. Yep. And I'm speaking from experience and bad experience when I was a manager giving my people feedback. I used to compare Mel against, let's say April for example. Not cool. 'cause Mel ain't April and April ain't Mel.

And I've learned that the hard way and shit sticks as well, by the way. Oh yeah. On your reputation. And it stuck. And I'm very apologetic to this day, to the person that I did that to 'cause that was completely wrong.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

Prina: So let's not compare people either. 'cause we're not the same. We're not clones.

Mel: Exactly. Well, Prina, I think we've covered a lot of ground. We're good. A few rabbit holes, but I'm all for it. So what do you think some of the key takeaways are for people who need to have performance conversations or who. Are going to be receiving feedback,

Prina: Remembering the different types of feedback there. There are so many. So listen to this podcast again. Check it all out. Um, check in on yourself and your self-awareness and how you receive feedback. Do the hard work on yourself, I think [00:36:00] is really important. Yeah, we've given some brilliant tools. You know, the AIR model, the STAR model, the SBI model. I loved your two by two Mel.

That really got me thinking. Okay. Um, and I think a big one as well for people. When you're receiving feedback, if you don't want to respond to it, you don't have to go process your brain, take time out, articulate it, don't freeze.

Mel: I love that. Yeah. For me, it's a reminder about the language that we use. So remember, you don't have to use the word feedback, especially if it does. You know, generate negativity in your workplace. You haven't got a culture of feedback. Uh, but also just asking a closed question, like, do you have any feedback for me, isn't the best way to generate a, a conversation that will be helpful for anybody? So ask open-ended questions like, what could I be doing better?

What should, what am I doing well that I should keep doing or build on? Yeah. So be open in your questions. And you'll get much better feedback. And, you know, [00:37:00] ask for advice rather than feedback can also be a good way to, to generate a conversation that's actually helpful.

Prina: Roast each other if you've got the trust.

Yes, it is the best. Oh my gosh. Rip

Mel: weekly roast trust. Yeah, that's it. Only if you've got trust. Yes. That's a big, yeah, it'll be fun. Oh, I loved that conversation, Prina. Uh, so next time we are talking about. Well, having tough conversations. So this is kind of a going on from this feedback, but, you know, there are challenging conversations we have to have.

Sometimes it's about behaviour. Sometimes we have to let people go. Sometimes it's, you know, the business is failing sometimes, you know, um, somebody, maybe something really bad has happened to somebody at work that you need to have a conversation about. So we're gonna tackle that big juicy nugget in next week's episode.

Prina: Bring it.

Bye for now.

Mel: Bye.