Mel: [00:00:00] In a noisy world, we're all looking for ways to cut through and get our messages heard. It doesn't matter if you are communicating to your employees or to your customers or everyone else in between, you are still competing with a lot of noise. And you've probably heard that being able to tell stories is one way to cut through the noise.

And it's true. I've spoken about storytelling myself many times on this podcast, and there's dozens of different frameworks out there, but the first step is to find the story. And how do you even do that? Well, my guest on today's podcast has made story spotting his profession. David Pullan started his life working as an actor in Sydney, Australia, and after more than two decades on stage and screen in the UK, he made the very unexpected right hand turn into corporate communication.

Along with his partner Sarah Jane McKechnie, he formed The Story Spotters, a company that helps leaders and their teams use story-based [00:01:00] techniques to build trust, drive engagement, and importantly influence change. They've got two books, the DNA of Engagement and their newest one, the Art of the Unignorable Email.

And these books show us how we can save our great ideas from the threat of extinction by giving them the strength to survive and thrive in this increasingly busy world. Now in this episode, David spills the tea on the key frameworks in both of the books and how you can apply them to your own communication practices.

David is an absolute pro and I always learn so much from him, and I'm sure you will too. So without further ado, here's David Pullan. David Pullan, welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter.

David: Mel Loy. How lovely to finally meet you.

Mel: I know. So for our listeners, David and I have been connected on LinkedIn for a few years now, really following each other's journey.

So we're finally having a conversation in real life, kind of, which is really nice. So, uh, [00:02:00] David, where are you joining us from today?

David: Well, I'm in a very dark and pretty damp and cold UK and, and questioning my life choices, Mel, because I grew up in Australia and, um, and it's, uh, you know, yeah, basically life choice question going on here.

Mel: Well, uh, like we were saying just before we started recording, today is not one of those days to be jealous of us here in Brisbane where it's 38 degrees and 90% humidity.

David: Yeah.

Mel: But look, let's tell us a bit about you. What do you do? How did you come to develop your expertise in that space?

David: So my wife and I, Sarah Jane and I have got a company called The Story Spotters, and we work in businesses, we work with story in business.

But you know, you, you chuck a stick at LinkedIn and everyone's talking about storytelling today, but we are very much about story spotting, about helping people to spot their stories and then tell their stories. And we think about, um, we work with, with, with story in four ways in in, in business. First is obviously the stories you have to tell, the things that are going [00:03:00] to connect to heads and hearts and make things understandable.

Put everyone on the same page. Probably more importantly, there's the stories you listen for. How do you draw stories out of other people so that you really connect with them, that you get to understand them. Then the third thing is the stories you trigger through your behaviour. So the, you know, the moment you show up, we're telling, you know, you're telling a story about yourself and people are thinking, oh, do I like this person?

And, uh, so just how do you show up and what stories do you trigger through your behaviors, which is incredibly important in leadership. And the last one, which, which we never thought was going to take off quite as much as it has, is. And, and has actually become incredibly important is what is the story you're telling yourself about yourself, um, which is either gonna help or hinder your process.

So it's, um, that's what we do. The journey to doing that was a pretty long and winding road to quote the man. And it was, um, I, I. We both started out as actors and [00:04:00] Sarah Jane was an actor from we, we both met as actors. And then when our son was born, she decided she wanted to do something that was slightly more reliable financially.

And, um, she got involved in, in what was called impact training in, in, in the city in London at the time, which was basically helping people to make the most of being in the room vocally and physically leadership. Um. And I started doing some of that at a drama school where I was teaching, I was teaching voice there, and I created a, a course called Your Voice is the Business, which took off really.

And it was a, it was a slow slipstream into... this became bigger and I, I basically had to make the choice. I got to that crossroads with, well, do you actually want to go where life seems to be telling you that it wants you and you. It can make, can make an impact. And so, uh, it was, I, I decided to do it. I went feet first into it and haven't regretted it once, actually. I love it.

Mel: Oh, that's awesome. And I really love [00:05:00] that. Uh, you point to the fact that sometimes there's a lot of signs from the universe. I feel that point in the direction of your next step. Like I, I remember heading into freelancing and. The stars, you know, nothing was perfect, but there was, the stars just seemed to align on some things and like, well or never let's give it a shot.

David: I, I, I, I completely, and do you know what, Mel, as you say that, the one thing I think, I mean, one of the things, I mean, just purely on a story level, people say to me, oh, I haven't got any stories to tell. And, and actually I think we've all got them to tell.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

David: But actually what people don't do is they, they, they miss them as they're flying by.

And you've just gotta put a big catcher's mitt out sometimes and go, oh, there's that one. That's exactly it. It's the, it's the opportunities. It's those change moments. It's the, it's those moments in life where you have to make a decision. And, and those are happening to us every day. The question is, do we spot them or not?

Mel: Mm-hmm. And I really love that, that that's the view you and Sarah Jane have taken on this because, uh, there's a lot out [00:06:00] there about how to tell a story. Like, you know, there's frameworks galore and courses galore, and TEDx talks galore, but. Very little on. Well, yes. How do I find the story in the first place?

David: And you're exactly right.

Mel: Like you said, everybody I talks to, it's just a matter of going, well, tell me about a time when something like this happened or you know, and it's like, oh yeah, when you think about it. You tell stories all day, like you get home from work and you're telling a story to your loved ones, you're telling a story at work on about what happened on the weekend. Like that's what we do.

David: Well, we do, and not only that, and I mean, I, I know you're gonna get onto this, but all of us live in a story the whole time, which is where this thing, the DNA framework came from.

That we, we talk about this dream nightmare action sequence, which is, you know, whether it's as a human being, waking up in the morning and David Pullan wanting to get onto a, you know, my dream of getting onto onto a podcast with Mel Loy and then the nightmare of, oh my goodness, me, my computer needs upgrading.

And then, you know, the updating and stuff. And so the action of frantically typing away, [00:07:00] we. We live in this story sequence in our lives of ambition, dream, nightmare, obstacle, action, action. And that's our story world as human beings. And, and so we are, people say we're wired for story. We actually live story.

That's what we do. It's the narrative of our lives really, whether it's as an individual or whether it's as an organisation, it's on a micro and a macro level.

Mel: Yeah, I love that. And you mentioned the DNA framework, so let's. Get into that. So you and Sarah Jane have written two books, which is amazing. And the first one was the DNA of engagement. So why did you decide to write that book? What problem did it help to solve?

David: Yeah, I mean it came, it, it was an amazing period of time actually, 'cause it sort of brought a whole bunch of stuff together that we'd been doing for many, many years. And it was one of those, again, one of those moments you spot in life of the opportunity.

So the basic story is that one of our biggest clients is the insurer of Aviva in, in the UK or Aviva [00:08:00] Canada in Canada. And the, the chief exec there, Dame Amanda Blanc, has been a massive supporter of ours for about 20 odd years now, and has taken us from company to company. And she went into Aviva with a huge change agenda.

There was, uh, you know, there was slimming down the, the organisation to three countries. Uh, they were paying off the, you know, the, the, um, the investors. It was, there was a, there was a big strategic shift going on there, which of course needed everyone to be on board and pulling in the same direction. So they brought Accenture on board, the, the, to help with the change management stuff, and did this program called Courage to Lead 'cause Amanda stood up in front of her top 200 leaders and said.

Listen, this is the strategy, but I can't do it myself. I mean, I need you to go out there and engage the then 22 and a half thousand people in that journey. So Accenture came on board and then a, a few weeks or a couple of months into the program, they thought. [00:09:00] Okay, this is good. This is good strategic planning.

It's very heady, but how do people go out and have the conversation, which is, um, going to actually get people on board and make people think in oh, I get it. I actually wanna be a part of this too. I can, I can help co-create this change, which is a big part of our thing about... Co-creation of stories organisationally.

Um, and that's where the DNA came from. And, and like I say, we all live in this, especially within change, 'cause you've gotta engage people to want to be part of change. And the first thing is, you know, preaching to the choir here, I know Mel, but it's, um, it's, uh. Uh, the thing is we live in this DNA dream nightmare action sequence.

Once you understand that and that everybody's basically processing the world or processing their lives through this lens; then you've sort of unlocked the key and you think, okay, what I need to do now is if I connect to their dream first and say, listen, I get what it is you are trying, what you [00:10:00] want here, and why that's important to you.

Then you chuck in this little nightmare. But what I'm worried about is that this could get in the way of that. So let's work together to actually overcome that nightmare and achieve the dream. Then you've sort of unlocked, um, the, the key to engagement really, and that's, that's where the DNA came from.

And there's something we started saying recently is that the key to it is to, to connect and captivate. Connect to people first and then keep them captivated by, by pointing out what could get in the way of what it is they're trying to achieve and then helping to overcome that. And, and I think too many people in communication generally, but also in change do the opposite of that.

They, they just go in wherever the correction attitude and go, no, this is what we need to do. And then they try to convince. And so it's that, that correction and, and and convincing angle that causes so many problems, 'cause you just get pushback the whole time. So, so engaging people in the journey right from the [00:11:00] start is, eh, well it worked for Aviva let's put it that way.

Mel: Yeah. Well, it sounds like it. Um, and you know what was going through my mind when I was reading that part of your book was I feel like what's really clever about this, uh, framework is it's taken like the basic storytelling... Narrative model. You know, there's always a, there's a hero, there's a conflict and there's a resolution.

But what you've done is make it actually, this is how this works in a corporate setting, in a business setting, especially during change, which is, you know, obviously why I loved it so much. Um, yeah. Yeah. And the other thing like obviously storytelling is core to the book and you just seamlessly seem to weave stories in as we're talking too.

But you do talk about the prep structure, and I really liked this because it's So practical, it's easy to use. So PREP, can you tell our listeners a little bit more about that?

David: Well, it's actually PRET Pret,, Which starts with a point. So the whole thing is, [00:12:00] one thing we always say is, storytelling is great, but nobody cares about your story until you make them want to care about your story.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

David: So basically it's, it's, it's, um, I used to, I, I used to tell clients, I said. My son now is in his early thirties, but I mean, I always used to tell him stories at nighttime, and if I'd said to him, listen, I'm gonna tell you a story about why you should never take apples from old ladies in the forest because the apple will be poisoned.

The old lady will be a witch. He'd say, well, why are you gonna tell me the story? I mean, I know it now. Which sort of in, in, in classical, you know, movie making, theater novel storytelling is fine. But in business, you gotta make people want to hear your story. And this is where the PRET structure comes in, basically.

Think of it like, um, like being a subeditor. The point is this is what's important. Now this is, this is in a, in a nutshell, in a sentence, this is my point, this is the point I'm making. Um, r is the reason. This is why you should care about it, why it's [00:13:00] important for you. So it's the, it's the, it's the headline and the byline.

This is my point, this is the reason. And then the e is the story, the example, which is like, for example, I remember there was this time when, and that's where I find that the juice really happens. 'cause it's, um, you know, people can, well business thrives on people making very high level statements. But if you think about it, they, they, the moment you, you, you drop into.

For want of a better word, an action scene of this is where I've seen it working, or this is where I can see it, Imagine it playing out. Then people's neurons fire up and say, I get it. I get it. And, and, and they process it. You make sure that they are on the same page because they, they're seeing the same images as you really, so there's the point.

Your reason, short, short, slightly longer. The example, for example, next time you go onto a... Whatever on onto a podcast. Make sure you wake up 10 minutes earlier, David, and get your computer sorted [00:14:00] out, whatever it is, nothing. And then the t is the takeaway, the button, sort of like what's the call to action?

So remember to do this in the future. It's quite a simple structure and it's um, yeah, I like it. 'cause like I say, nobody cares about your story unless you give 'em a reason to care about it.

Mel: A hundred percent. Yes. And like it's that hook, you know, getting them in there.

David: Exactly.

Mel: And I think the other thing I found, and you've probably, uh, probably experienced the same thing, I'm not sure, but when you're working with leaders, especially new leaders who are new to communication, and we know that when people are put into leadership roles for the first time, very few of them, it's only like 20% actually get any formal leadership training or any mentoring.

So they're kind of like left to their own devices. It's like, yeah, you've got a leadership title now, you should just. Know what to do. Um, and so the idea of storytelling, strategic storytelling can be quite scary and overwhelming for a lot of them. They don't know where to start. And this is where I think a framework like that [00:15:00] could really be quite comforting, I think. Is that the kind of experience you've had?

David: Uh, completely, Mel. I mean, it, it, it's, and, and I agree with everything you've said there, and that is my experience as well. I mean, and, and a framework is good because. Often these people have been promoted 'cause they're very good at doing frameworks. I mean, they like something, you know, they, they've been promoted because of their technical skill.

And then as you say, they get into this role where suddenly the game has changed. And there's a different thing. I mean, one of the things in the book is, and that we quote, and it's a, I have no idea where it came from, but lead, it's the saying that leaders hold the ladder up, which others climb. And so it's.

I, I, I genuinely believe that that ladder, the rungs of that ladder is made up of the stories that that leader tells, basically about, you know, this is the dream, this is the vision, this is what could get in the way of what we're trying to achieve here. This is what I need from you. This is what I can do.

And, and that comes from all sorts of level, the positive things. The leadership, [00:16:00] actually, I dunno about, I'd be interested to know this about what you think about this, but one of the, the biggest challenges I get with leaders is getting them to tell. Um, I'm use the word vulnerability and if you chuck a stick at LinkedIn and everyone's talking about that.

But it's, uh, but I mean, you know, there's the, it is like, how did I get here? What did I have to overcome? 'cause people tend to look at leaders and go, oh, well, some magic fairy dust has just been sprinkled over them. And they, they happen to be there and it's not true. Everyone's had a struggle to get to where they are, so, mm-hmm.

Again, another saying, speaking from the scar and not from the wound. This is how I got here. Mm-hmm. This is what I did it. You can toos. Very important.

Mel: Yeah, I agree. There's, uh, almost a fear of being vulnerable because especially if I don't know all the answers and in change you're not going to know all the answers.

David: No.

Mel: You know, no change changes as you're changing. That's the reality of it. Nothing's linear and so being able to actually say. I don't know, but I'll [00:17:00] find out for you. Or, look, I had this same issue when I was coming up through the ranks and you know, as you were saying, it's those stories that connect people to each other and see you as a human being and building those connections between you and your team and your peers.

Yeah, it's those relationships that are going to help you achieve what you want to achieve and, you know, keep things moving along and help other people achieve what they want to achieve. It's putting those walls up doesn't really help anybody.

David: It doesn't. And, and, and as you say that, the one thing I'm thinking of is, is that actually sort of saying I don't have all the answers here, allows people, especially in a change environment and a corporate environment, it allows your people to, to co-create the story.

It's about sort of saying I can be a part of that as well. And again, story alert, but I mean I, uh, that one of the biggest lessons I learned on that was I used to be an actor for many years. I trained at NIDA which, um, the Australian viewers. No, from Sydney and, and then it's very fancy. It's hard to get into [00:18:00] NIDA

Mel: You must be very good actor, David.

David: You try getting out of there mentally.

It's uh, yeah, another time, another podcast, I said. Anyway, it's, um. Uh, the, the thing I really learned from the best directors that I ever worked with was they come on day one with a vision and they've got the set and they've got the costumes, but it's the ones who are willing to be surprised during the journey to opening night and go, ah, that's interesting.

I've never thought about the character quite the way that you are doing it there. And then it's about allowing the cast to co-create the journey. It doesn't radically change it, but it adds nuance, it adds flavor, it adds color to it. So, so I mean. Allowing people, why not be part of the co-creation? Yeah, I mean, who knows? Allow yourself to be surprised.

Mel: Love that. Now, speaking of surprise, let's talk about the next book, which is The Art of the Unignorable email. And I love that title as well, [00:19:00] but I have to ask, why do you think we are still so reliant on email as a channel when there's been so many other developments in recent times, new ways of communicating?

Email's quite an old thing now. I remember getting my first. Hotmail account in the early nineties. So why are we still so reliant on it?

David: Oh, Mel, if I knew that, I mean, I mean, you're right. There are so many other challenges. If we were to do a hierarchy of, of, of the best ways to communicate, I mean, I think what we are, do well being in the room together would be even better.

But human beings actually communicating, thank goodness, I think is still probably the best way for us to do what humans do of creating large groups that solve problems together. I really don't know. I really don't know why we're, so, maybe it's laziness. Maybe it's, maybe it's, we, I mean, we're habit forming creatures, aren't we?

And you know, it's just there and, mm. The problem is it's becoming, I mean, technology's overtaking this and, you know, Gemini and copilot [00:20:00] and everything that people use nowadays, you can spot them. Can't, you can spot those emails that, that, that have, have, have just been... Drafted by and copy and pasted from one of those AI tools.

Mel: Mm-hmm.

David: And the reason why we wrote the book is, is, well the subtitle of it is, um, how to Combine AI and EQ to Win the Battle of the Inbox. 'cause you know, we're not gonna put the AI Genie back in the bottle, but it's when we as human beings start to bring our own... flavour to it, our own personality, our own individuality, and allow the AI to, to help us be better at being individuals.

Then I think that that's the, that that's the key to it. And the reason we wrote, well, the short. It's not a short answer at all this, but I mean the short answer, the short answer is we were working with a group of strategists on the DNA stuff in the room and they said, they said, this is great. It's really great when we, you know, we get in the room to actually do this, [00:21:00] but sometimes we never get in there in the first place 'cause people are just ignoring our emails.

So we wrote the book about how do you craft an email that is going to be unignorable and it takes that DNA structure. And then it inverts it as well. So a bit like a guitar chord or any musical chord is made of three notes. You can, according to where you are in the relationship, start to invert the dream nightmare action.

So you might go, listen, we got this nightmare that we're facing at the moment. These are the actions we need to take and it's gonna lead to this dream outcome. So, or if somebody says to you, so what are you doing about this right at the moment? They don't want you go, well, let me tell you about the dream.

They, they, they want the answer. We're doing this, we're taking these actions at the moment, but guess what? It's avoiding this nightmare and it's gonna lead to this dream outcome. Mm-hmm. So the email, the art of the Unignorable email was, how do you do all that in about 200 words with a nice subject line and yeah, it's gone down very well.

Mel: Oh, excellent. Well, I certainly learned a [00:22:00] thing or two and like, it, it really nicely married up with some of the. Well, thankfully validate a lot of the advice I give to people. So that was good.

David: Oh, good. I'm really glad.

Mel: Yeah. But going back to the subtitle, that book does talk about that AI plus EQ equation.

Yeah. So how do you marry up what seems to be two very polar opposites, you know, something very human, something very not human. And why do we need to do that?

David: Well. Great question. I recently, well probably about a year ago, uh, joined a thing called the Network First Manifesto, which is, was set up by a bunch of people in Palo Alto and Stanford and all of that, who, as you can imagine, are really into the whole AI thing.

And they started it basically because they thought that, you know, we are in an age now where knowledge is not the thing that makes you stand out. I mean, at the click of a button you can get an answer and it's, it's... Easily available. It's quickly available. It's just there. The strength that we have, the [00:23:00] value that we have as human beings is our ability to make networks, is our ability to make connections, to make that not only head connection, but that heart connection as well.

Where people feel that they've been heard, that they've been understood, that they had been, you know, without wanting to sound too wishy, wasy, I cared about basically. And I think that the AI. I mean, I use it myself. I mean, you know, you'd be mad not to. I mean, if you've got a circular saw, you use a circular or, I mean, don't keep using our, you know, hatchets or, or something.

We've got great tools now, so I use it myself. It's how we add in our personal stuff and then actually say, okay, I've got this knowledge. This is how it's applicable to you. And I think that that's where the marriage comes in is, is you, you've got all this stuff, but please don't copy and paste it.

Actually do a little bit of effort as well. And actually think about how does this apply to this situation right now about this human being who I'm in front of? And that's essentially where it came from.[00:24:00]

Mel: Yeah. I love that. For me, it's uh, it's the BBQ test, I call it, you know, how would you be talking about this to somebody?

You just meant it a barbecue. Yeah. Because if you wouldn't actually talk like this in real life, then people know. People, people pick that up.

David: On that, we agree that's. Do you know, I I I, I spend a lot of my time working with teams who are pitching for, for very large global contracts.

And one of the, and, and that's a large, a long process of strategising the, the, the tender and the pitch and blah, blah, blah. But I mean, one of the, one of the last exercises, which I often do is, is right, okay, you've got all this stuff now, and I want you to imagine that I'm a, an intelligent but slightly hyperactive 9-year-old.

I want you to do your pitch in 10 minutes to me. In my language, language that I will understand. So, you know, the gunning folk test about sort of, you know, have you ever come across that the gunning fog test? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the, so, so basically speaking the [00:25:00] language that a 9-year-old would understand and you have to keep me in the room.

I want to get out there, I wanna go and play with my football. And people do their pictures. And the number of times that people said, people have said, why aren't we doing it like this then? Because, 'cause it does, it suddenly becomes a. It becomes a human conversation and they get rid of all of that jargon and, you know, and you know, all the KPIs and the blah blah blahs and the disappear.

And they just wanna say, the thing we need to be thinking about over the next few weeks as we do this is, you know, simple language.

Mel: Yeah. Love it. Uh, and it is, I often say to people, you know, being simple isn't dumbing it down. No, that's, it's just being, being smart. Just being, it's. How are people meant to understand how smart you are if they can't understand what you're saying?

So, no, and that's why I think about a lot of academic writing as well. You know, there must be some amazing research and ideas out there, but nobody knows about it 'cause nobody understands it.

David: Well, no, I think [00:26:00] you make an incredibly important point here. I, I was working on a hackathon with a client of mine yesterday and some really bright ideas and some very important ideas to an organisation being judged by the exco and um, and.

I mean, I know that Exco very well that they were pitching to, and the one thing I know is they are overwhelmed by information. Just stuff they have to mm-hmm. Take on board. And one of the things that I think is a massive problem in communication is not that people disagree with you, it's that they ignore you in the first place because it's, we are, we are overwhelmed with information.

And unless you can... Make it simple and give people's brains a shortcut to make it understandable. Then the danger is that people are gonna, oh, I'll read the deck later, or blah, blah, blah. You know, I've got other stuff I need to do. So, so that's simplifying things so people's brains don't have to do well, don't have to do the work of thinking, what the hell is this about in the first weeks?

Yeah. I mean, get rid of all that. Yeah. Love it. Hard. We're so [00:27:00] aligned on that.

Mel: Uh, last, I guess, serious question. Uh, the book talks about this Monday morning test, which is, you know, not something you do after a big weekend. Can you tell our readers more about what it actually is?

David: Yeah, no abs absolutely. I mean, this is, well this is the, it's a human test really.

It's, it's like, but when you are, when you are writing your email and you look at the Monday morning test, you gotta imagine. Statistically, I think a lot of people are checking their emails. So the Monday morning test is what's gonna stop that scroll? What's even in the headline? The first, you know, the, the above the line for opening sentence, what's the pers what's gonna make people go?

I need to answer this one, or at least I need to read, I need to click it and open it. So the Monday morning test is, it's Monday morning, you've just had a heavy weekend. You've gotta get a train in a couple of, and in an hour's time, what is it that you will write that will make people say, ah, that's the one I've got to actually really pay attention to. That's the, that's the, that's the Monday morning [00:28:00] test in a nutshell.

Mel: I love it. And, uh, it's a, it's a good little, it doesn't take much just to stop and think about that. And again, that's one of the brilliant parts of the books that you and Sarah Jane have written is there's so much in there that's just easily applicable to being in the moment. Uh, now I have three questions I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those?

David: Excellent. I'm ready to go.

Mel: Let's do it. All right. What's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned, and how did it change the way you approach communication?

David: Oh, um. Okay, I'm gonna do a quote. Um, the, the, the, there was a guy, Edmund Lockard, who was the, um, he's the father of forensic science. It's why we've got CSI Miami and all that sort of stuff. And he said his quote, he came up with the theory of, um, every contact leaves a trace. And that's why, you know, a criminal is gonna leave their thing, their, their.

Things at [00:29:00] the scene of a crime. I think that's true in communication as well as crime. I mean, every time we are in contact with people, we leave a trace. I mean, and people are sort of built, your reputation is building up. People are thinking about you people. It just builds up into this mosaic of who you are and I, I, I think that the time I learned that.

It was actually when I was an actor, I was doing a production of Macbeth with the Royal Shakespeare Company and you know, I was one of the, you know, I, I didn't have a huge part in it and there was the banquet scene and everything. And as actors tend to do over the course of a run, we all sort of got a bit naughty and we were sort of like kicking each other on the table and playing food fights with the bread and stuff like that.

Nothing too distracting unless you were watching those idiots on the table at the back there. And we, we had one of those. Meetings after, you know, there was a drinks thing afterwards and, and this guy came up to me with his son. It's quite, quite amazing. This actually, he came up, he's an American guy and he came up, he said, I really, really enjoyed [00:30:00] that.

He said, he said, this is my son. And, and he whispered to me, he said, he's got leukemia. He has, he's only seen the raw Shakespeare company was on his bucket list. He really wanted to do that. And it was one of those moments when I thought, who the hell do you think you are, David, taking the piss at the table.

Um. You know when, when you don't know who's out there, you don't know who's watching you, and every contact leaves a trace with someone. So that's the, I think that's the, that's the biggest lesson I've ever learned is that just show up. 'cause you know it's starting to build e every time you're with somebody, it builds up your reputation or diminishes it is more importantly.

Mel: Mm. That's really powerful. Thank you for sharing that. That would've been a. A big light bulb moment.

David: No, no, no. Thank you. I hadn't thought about that for a while. Thank you.

Mel: Yeah. Uh, well the second question then is what's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

David: I, I, I'm gonna go back to that thing I said [00:31:00] at the beginning of the show actually. The, the, the, the, the, the connecting before correcting. I mean, just, it's, it's, you know, I, that's what I wish people would do more of is just connect to the other person. Show that you've just got them, you've understood them, and we spent, we waste so much time correcting people and then trying to convince them.

Just connect first, earn the permission to, to sort of say, oh. Get where you come from. Hang on. I think that this might get in the way of it. So let's have a talk about, you know, and, and then instead of jumping in, I think what you're doing is wrong and we should do it this way, which is just, uh, what a waste of time.

What a waste of effort. I mean, we'd probably all be having long weekends if, if, if, if that was, if, if business ran that way. So I wish people did more of that. Yeah, that's it really.

Mel: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, that's a really good more of a.. Thank you. And the question number three, who do you turn to for communication advice?

David: Now this was a great one. The beauty [00:32:00] of the beauty of COVID. I haven't said that sentence ever, but the beauty of COVID, I mean, is, was the connections that we, we, we, we made on LinkedIn during that time, and just the global connections.

And I'm, I'm so heartened by the, but by just the generosity of, of of, of the people who I, people like you and, and Charlotte Otter, who is, is, is is somebody who I think is wonderful. Um, uh. Uh, yeah, just the way we share our ideas and, and, and clarify each other's ideas. But I do have to say I spent, I, I love reading.

I love reading, but I've spent far too many years just reading business books and sort of increasing my knowledge. The weird thing I'm doing now, Mel, is I'm going back to the novel, which I love 'cause it takes me into another world and I sort of. I get a lot of ideas from it because a great novelist will actually sort of show you, they create the human condition in front of you and you think, oh, that's a good one to avoid.

You don't wanna be doing [00:33:00] that in, in, in a situation or, oh, I really like the way that they handle that situation.

Mel: Mm-hmm. Oh, I love that. And look, Tolstoy... Tolstoy is very depressing anyway, um, but you have, you have reminded me, uh, so all I seem to read is, is business books and behavioural science books and I love it. You know, I'm not trashing those at all, but, uh, I do need to get back to reading the novels and, and when you're talking about, you know, putting the human condition in front of you, I think one of the best authors for doing that was Dickens and just the way he developed each character.

Down to the smallest traits was just incredible. Um, and so I used to read a whole lot of Dickens and you know, Vanity Fair is still my favourite book of all time because of those nuances. You know, some of these characters are just awful, but then there's so much more to them than just being awful.

David: And of course when you think about Dickens, about the way it was released and apparently sort of people would be queuing up on the docks in New York for what's the next installation in, you know, tale of two [00:34:00] cities or whatever it is. I mean, it's, it, it, it, it, it, it's uhm... it's really, I basically what happens next? That's the key to storytelling and the key to all communications is making people think, so what happened next? Then what happened? Then what happened? Or what's gonna come up next?

Mel: Um. We will put some links to your books in the show notes, but if people want to get in touch with you and find out more about you, what's the best way for them to do that?

David: Well, you know, we have a website, funnily enough, www.thestoryspotters.com. But LinkedIn come and come and connect with me on LinkedIn. I mean, I, I, I don't shut up about this stuff and I, you know, I have some great conversations on there. So, so if you, if you fancy a chat, you fancy connecting David Pullan with an a, um, on both the David and the Pullan.

Um, yeah, come and come and say hi on LinkedIn. I'd love to see you there.

Mel: Yeah, I can actually absolutely attest to that. Your content is... Super entertaining and uh, I think once people find you, they will not want to let you go, which is a little bit scary as well.

David: Thank [00:35:00] you, Mel.

Mel: David, thank you so much for joining us on Less Chatter, More Matter.

David: Thank you.