Mel: [00:00:00] What do you think of when you hear the word alignment? It's not a very sexy word I know, but it's an important one when we think about leadership, communication, and change. While executives and key stakeholders might agree to something in principle.

Or my degree in public. If they are not truly aligned, then the agreement means nothing. When there's no alignment, change takes much longer to implement strategy stagnate, and people get fed up and leave. So for this week's episode, I was delighted to chat to the alignment Queen herself, Zora. Zora is a Melbourne based strategist, advisor, facilitator, and leadership coach.

She helps executives and teams make sense of complexity, align around priorities, and move forward with clarity. How nice would that be to see more of that and as CEO of Artis Advisory, And co-founder of the Alignment People. She brings deep expertise in strategic [00:01:00] communication, brand leadership, and of course alignment.

She's a fellow of the IABC, the Australian Marketing Institute, and the Team Flow Institute. Zuora is also a certified strategic communication management professional, ICF, associate CERT certified coach, certified practicing marketer and company director. So she is well versed in getting people to align. She has co-authored Global First Research on Strategic Alignment advising Leaders Across Sectors, and her work is driven by a passion for helping people and organisations to flourish.

Now in this episode, Zora shares not only what alignment and misalignment look and feel like, but also gives us an exclusive preview of the research she has recently undertaken with another alignment guru, Wayne Aspland, to help benchmark alignment in organisations and identify what can be improved and how.

So without further ado, let's get into it. Here's Zora

Zora Artis, [00:02:00] welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter..

Zora: Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here, Mel.

Mel: I am very happy to have you here, and it is remiss of me that I haven't had you on here so far because you are a legend among comms people. Can you tell us a little bit about you? What do you do? How did you come to develop your expertise in this space?

Zora: Oh, wow. Uh. It is, it's been, it's been a bit of a process, uh, a long process, but I won't, um, go through everything. I pretty much help leaders, uh, teams tackle really sort of tough, tough issues. Um, I help them find clarity and then really take that, um, commit to action.

Um, so I, I say that my... Superpower is being comfortable in the uncomfortable, and that's developed over time. It's part of the process of becoming much more self-aware, um, [00:03:00] of what you're good at, what you're not good at, and testing yourself. So. I love being in that sort of space, and I tend to get opportunities to work with, uh, leaders in organisations when everything's not necessarily rosy.

So whether it's, you know, aligning people or solving some sort of problem or navigating change, you know, I help them and guide them to what I think they would say is what matters most and how to help them do their best work. So, you know. Um, functionally, I'm a strategist. Uh, I'm an advisor, facilitator, and coach.

Um, and over the years, my frustration, I suppose, and curiosity has led me into the space of alignment because I saw the gap between strategy and execution in the work that I was doing with clients, not necessarily. From me. But in, you know, you, you do, [00:04:00] you do a piece of strategic work and then you give it to them to implement and check in on them down the track and stuff's not working and you wonder why.

And that led me to having a bit of a conversation with a, a fellow colleague who at the time was on the IOBC Victoria board that I was leading, and his name is Wayne Aspland. And we were both. Frustrated in a way. And he's from working in-house in corporate and mine from being the strategic, uh, consultant.

And we decided to take a look at strategic alignment and the role of communication and the impact on leadership. And that was the first global study that was done. And that was back in 2018. It got really good. Um, uh, it was well received across the world. And then in the end of 2020, at the end of the first wave of the pandemic, we thought, let's have a look at this again.

Let's see what this massive [00:05:00] change is doing to, to. organisations and how's that impacting alignment? So we created this thing called the Road to Alignment, and we were pretty happy with it for uh, a while. And then just recently we decided to take a look at it again because the environment we're in now is again, shifted so much, you know, the complexity, volatility.

Uncertainty, the waning trust, um, and confidence in leaders. Uh, the pace of change is just incredible. And of course we've got AI rolled into that, so we're looking at that right now. Um, and I was so into the alignment piece that I decided to go and study it, and I studied it at Saïd Business School in Oxford.

Uh. A lot of my focus has now been on, on that, on helping organisations in three core areas, um, be better, um, and more effective at communication, um, work more cohesively and build capability in communication and alignment and, and [00:06:00] adapt adaptability for, particularly for leaders.

So that's it in a nutshell.

Mel: Well, it sounds like. Uh, you've really hit some hit on something here like back in 2018. That has only become, as you say, more and more relevant as the times keep changing. I wanna delve into alignment a bit more. And you have touched on this a little bit, but what do you mean by that? How does that show up in a business? What does that look like?

Zora: It's interesting. It's, it's, um. It's quite fundamental. We say it's important and lots of people say it's important, yet organisations are really aligned. So the numbers are quite astonishing. Uh, only this year the professor that I had at, at Oxford, he has done an uh, a study in strategic alignment and his numbers almost mirrored what Wayne and I had in 2018, and this is now 2025.

And. In [00:07:00] his, in his case, he looked at over 700 and plus leaders, um, in his study and over 90% all said strategic alignment was fundamental to an organisation achieving its goals. Yet only 14% of organisations are highly aligned. In our case, it was 96% and 13%, so it's barely shifted. So. What happens is with alignment is a lot of people misunderstand it.

And the, the study that Wayne and I are doing now shows that alignment is not well understood. A lot of people assume it means agreement. Um, they assume it's, um, about, uh, everyone, uh, pretty much jumping into lines, so to speak. And. It is to a degree, but it's not necessarily agreement and it's not an outcome.

And a lot of people assume it's an outcome. It's this state that [00:08:00] you end up at. So they think it's a once and done exercise, whereas alignment's really a doing word. It's an, it's, it's a process that's ongoing, something that needs to be done regularly, that's, um, also a capability and can be learned. So I look at it as being about creating shared clarity and meaning.

And then it's making sense of the various parts and agreeing on what the, the action is as a unified whole. So you can have disagreement on perspectives, but you would need to agree on where you're going and how you're getting there. But you need to have that collective understanding and meaning.

Otherwise, there's lots of different translations of language and words and things like that, and people get confused and go off and do all sorts of things, which. Don't help the organisation overall.

Mel: Let's dig into that a little bit more. What are some of the signs that leaders are not aligned? What, [00:09:00] uh, the red flags or what are some of the things we should look out for?

Zora: It's interesting if you speak with leaders, they often believe that they are aligned when they're not. Um, and I, I, I, I have said this before, misalignment isn't loud, so you can sometimes. It can show up in people's feelings in the relationships people have with each other, particularly in, in teams, uh, the unresolved conflict.

Um. Perceptions being misunderstood. Uh, it can look like group think and politeness, so you can have a sense of there's almost like fo false harmony and belonging, like a superficial level of it. Uh, so you see that alignment becomes something that's performative rather than real. Um, on an operational level, it's wasted effort.

Missed opportunities. There's [00:10:00] duplication of work, uh, there's confusion, there's silos. All of this sort of stuff impacts the bottom line. And when, earlier this year there was that, um, Axios HQ report on the state of internal comms, and they showed that, and communication is fundamental to alignment. So they show that the cost of misalignment is quite big.

So leaders were spending, I think it was. Uh, just about a third of their time on fighting fires on, um, being dragged into competing projects on, um, clarifying goals, which weren't clear, so they hadn't been communicated well. So it definitely impacts the bottom line because they estimated it to be something like, um, 45 days.

Um, per employee in terms of time lost, which is massive.

Mel: Wow, that's huge.

Zora: Massive. Mm-hmm.

Mel: Yeah. Okay. [00:11:00] So that's how, that was some of the signs of misalignment.

Zora: Mm-hmm.

Mel: Let's flip that. What does that look like if you are in aligned organisation? How does that compare?

Zora: There's what I would call a sense of flow. Where, um, the teams and the organisation thinks, acts and works better together. So you're seeing people being able to, uh, listen better or the research that we've just, we're, we're doing. I'll, I'll dig into that a little bit. The research that Wayne and I are doing it now, um, is showing us that organisations listen deeply and often.

Uh, they communicate clearly and consistently. They're building that shared clarity. They've got the ownership, they've got accountability, and they've got commitment, and in natural fact. Uh, for organisations to [00:12:00] work well together, that there's a trio that they need to have. It's, and it's systematic.

So basically it's not one of those things that is more important than the other. All three. So you've got alignment, cohesion, and commitment. They need to work together, and that's particularly relevant in organisations going through change and transformation. So those three, um, it's, there's also. A fair bit of, uh, psychological safety and discomfort with disagreement.

So the difficult conversations are being had. Um. So you're not banking up conflict. Uh, they, they encourage dialogue and sense making, and particularly with complexity, and they're open to seeing what emerges out of that. So they're not necessarily saying, this is it. This is what must happen. They're open to things emerging and, and being able to shift and adapt, uh, and [00:13:00] communication importantly is seen as an enabler, and...

the leaders are outstanding at communication, so that's really important. And they behave, they model behaviour the way they should be,

Mel: which again, goes to show why it's so important that leaders develop communication skills.

Zora: Um, totally.

Mel: I, and you've probably seen this as well. I often see over the last how many decades or whatever, I'm sure we've both been doing this work. Uh, people get promoted into leadership positions and are then kind of left to, you know, just do it. You should, you've got the title now, you should know how. And, you know, communication isn't a skill that is natural for a lot of people, like anything else that's learned. Uh, and some of the stats I've seen around that are, are pretty challenging.

And very few new leaders actually get any formal training and communication. And in the [00:14:00] absence of that, what they tend to do is mirror behaviours that they've witnessed from previous leaders or other leaders, which of course is very problematic if you're in, if you haven't had a good example, but you don't know what you don't know either. That's a problem.

Zora: That is so true. I remember. Years ago when I was, when I stepped into management and I was in my mid twenties, and so I had this preconceived notion of what a manager should be like. Mm. When I look back at that now, I just sort of shake my head. I actually did well, reasonably well.

However, there are things that I shouldn't have done, clearly shouldn't have done. So one thing that I think is really important is to develop your self-awareness. Hmm. Really develop your self-awareness. Become aware of, um, the things that hold you back and the things that you could be better at. Um, and what you need to do and when you need to be observing and listening and when you need to, stepping in, stepping [00:15:00] into your curiosity, learning much more, um, that becomes really important.

Mel: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think I look back at my first leadership in inverted comm position, uh, I had no freaking idea what I was doing it. Perfect, to be perfectly honest. Um, and again, just winging it a lot of the time. But, uh, part of that, like you said, that self-awareness piece, for me, it was, uh, understanding that feedback wasn't a criticism, feedback was helpful and switching my mindset in that way as well.

Which brings me back to your, I'm curious about your research and how you're conducting it, because like you said, a lot of time leaders think they're aligned, but they're not. So how do you. How do you measure that? How do you get into that?

Zora: Actually, measurement's, one of the big problems, uh, we do ask the question around measurement and accountability. And so the two things there in terms of that governance, [00:16:00] governance is quite poor, and the accountability, there is no clear answer to who's accountable for it. I mean, people do say, you know, CEO, however. It ranges from the C-suite to this leader, that leader, communication, you know, all of these different people.

So in essence, it becomes a shared responsibility, but no one owns it. And then when it comes to the measurement issue, there's a proxy. They're using a proxy for measurement. There's only a few out of the, all the people that we interviewed. So we've interviewed, uh, one-on-one interviews, uh. Uh, 54, 55 people Wow.

In different sorts of roles ranging from CEO, chief of staff, uh, strategy, communication, um, operations in-house, and then also those who specialize in that who, um, consult for example. [00:17:00] And the measurement piece is rare. There are ways to do it. Uh, however, most are falling back on the. Employee survey, the engagement, um, survey, uh, they're using that as a proxy that doesn't really, really measure alignment or they're saying, well, if we've achieved our goals, that means we must be aligned, or, you know, they're doing a balanced scorecard or things like that.

And that doesn't really measure it. Um, there are ways of measuring it. Uh, there is a fellow based out of, um. Denmark, who, uh, owns a company called In Advisor in Change, and they measure alignment as part of what they do in their change work. Um, I measure it through, um, mirror mirror alignment, which looks at teams and cross-functional teams and, you know, the level of team effectiveness and the level of team alignment across four different domains.

Strategic alignment, [00:18:00] cultural alignment, um, alignment in action, and stakeholder alignment. It can be measured, it can be benchmarked. People, just enough people just don't do it. And if you don't measure it, you don't genuinely commit to doing it well. Um, which goes to show that there's a big gap between those who think it's important and those who are actually doing it well.

Mel: Yeah. I, I really like what you just said there. You don't measure it. You're not really committed. And I think that goes for anything we do in an organisation too. Not just alignment, but everything we do. I want to go back to what you were saying earlier about communication being core to the alignment piece.

As a professional communicator, we're often working with leaders. How could we make a difference in addressing some misalignment in a business that we're working with or for?

Zora: Well, it's, it's interesting that, um, what, what I think is, is important is to realise that the role [00:19:00] of communication. Need is evolving and, and shifting, or it needs to evolve and shift from being, you know, the, the people who send stuff out, the message makers, to those who are the sense makers, those that are the facilitators, the connectors, the enablers.

So we need to be the ones who are helping leaders across different levels within the organisation, helping them be better at communication. More specifically, there are a number of people in, in, um, the research we did who aren't in communication, who are in, um, say, uh, strategy, who, when we ask the question, what role could, uh, communication teams do better, what could they do better to enable a lot better, stronger alignment?

They said that, one of them in particular said, the fact that there are even communication teams in existence is a problem. Hmm. And now if you think [00:20:00] about that, that relates to the fact that, you know, the leaders should be better at this. Hmm. The leaders should be communicating really well, yet they're not.

So you need to have communication professionals, obviously, um, in organisations. So I think that part of the role is to help. Leaders understand what alignment looks like and see what's missing. Um, help them make that invisible visible. So you know, so they can show where interpretations, um, and assumptions are differing because a lot of it happens because of people's individual perceptions and how they, and their mental models and biases and all that sort of thing, uh, help them understand how to facilitate dialogue.

So that is. Understanding how to have the conversations about things that are quite complex, but in a way that to help people understand and to come into [00:21:00] those conversations with curiosity, um, being open to understand rather than just respond and defend. So it's, you know, dialogue is about going in there to understand.

It's how to translate the strategy into meaning. Putting it into plain English, so if it's English, so people understand not just what's happening, but why it's happening and what their role is in it. Having the conversation, so they do have those understanding of what their role is, how they can contribute to it, uh, and coaching. Um, coaching the leaders so they know how to communicate. So it's quite an important role.

Mel: It is, and there's two things I I wanna touch on there. One was, you know, you mentioned strategy and translating the complex. Uh, and sometimes I think it's, it's the reverse. It's the strategy is so vague and nebulous. I've found when you actually press for like, okay, so [00:22:00] what does this mean for Maryanne, in the mailroom?

What does this mean for, you know, Nelly, the nurse, whoever. That to me is oftentimes when that misalignment does show up, because. Strategy has only been thought about in these big terms when it actually comes to a, what does it mean for particular audiences and particular people? That's when you get that difference of opinion a lot of the time as well.

It's like, well, no, they won't have to do anything different. Or somebody else says, well, actually their entire role is changing. And that to me is one of the signs that, okay, we're not even aligned on that level. What are some of the other, you know, you talked about asking good questions. What are some of the ways you can kind of go, okay.

What's a question I can ask that could maybe tease out how well aligned the leaders are around this strategy or this change initiative, or this project that could help me coach them better?

Zora: Mm. I like to think about you, you know, asking them to [00:23:00] potentially use things like, explain this to me in using something like a... say a metaphor or you know, an analogy or something, explain that to me so I can better understand, see if they can use something that they're more comfortable with so the people can understand what they're talking about. Otherwise, it can be so nebulous because the language, when they've been working on the strategy or they're in that space in their head, they're using the language that they've been talking with each other with.

Mm-hmm. And they just repeat that and parrot that without spending time on really digging in and, and thinking about what does this really mean to this person. Um, I did some work, um, a couple of years ago with an organisation, a global organisation, and helped their global leadership team, um, be better communicators and, uh, learn how to [00:24:00] align better.

And I created this toolkit for them, which looked at things like. All the core elements, the strategic sort of foundational things. So ranging from, um, the, the values which they call their DNA to their game plan, which is their strategy to, you know, the big goals, um, all these different elements of it. And I broke it, broke it all down into how they could communicate that in five minutes, if they had 15 minutes.

If they had a half an hour,

Mel: I love that.

Zora: And gave them examples of how you could speak about that. But then taught them how to do storytelling so they could create their own individual story that linked to that specific thing. So they had that in their pocket and then I gave them questions that they could then ask their people to start the, the dialogue and the conversation.

And I gave them the tips on what does good listening, [00:25:00] um, look like, sound like, what's that going to be? And taught them how to do that. So that made a lot more sense for them because then they were practicing it, they were doing it, and um, it worked a lot better because people could just connect.

So I remember one person who was in one of my training sessions, I had him do this story around whatever it was. And he said, oh, I saw such and such doing this in a presentation the other day. She opened this presentation with a story about her dad, and she connected it to this. That's what you're doing, isn't it?

And he said, it's the first time that everyone just sort of really listened to her. And I'm like, it just happened. And I said, yes. It's amazing when you personalise it or make it more, more relevant. People will listen. So if it takes a story, if it takes a metaphor analogy, whatever it is, people interpret things differently.

Mel: [00:26:00] Yep. Those are really good tips. Thank you for sharing. I love that 5 15 30, uh, way of chunking it down as well. That's really cool. Uh, the other question I had, you mentioned the changing role of the communicator.

How we need to be coaching and, and having those conversations. But I do know a lot of people, particularly newer practitioners, the idea of doing that could be quite challenging. So they're used to being the, the, the doers, the task managers, the order takers, and the idea of having a conversation where you're challenging potentially a senior leader's view on the world could be seen, could be quite overwhelming or confronting for people.

What advice do you have for people who might be feeling a bit that way, who want to step up, but are feeling nervous to do that?

Zora: It's interesting. I, I would recommend starting with curiosity, so being, asking questions, [00:27:00] thinking about what are the sort of questions that I can ask the leader so I can understand better, so it's more like, help me understand whatever. And, you know, go into it. As I said before, making things, um, trying to really facilitate, um, that shared, shared meaning. So helping them be better at what they're doing, so helping them communicate better, creating the links that they need to have rather than just. You know, saying, what's the message that you want me to put out there?

It's like, okay, let's help you, help you work on that message, whatever that is. Um, I think it's also around that simplification. How can, how can we make it simpler? Um, talking about if, one thing that I thought was really important is, um, around listening, being the ear on the ground. There was one person in particular that we were [00:28:00] talking with, um, in this, in the study that we're doing, and she was talking about how much time, uh, she spends in various chat rooms.

So there's the passive listening piece, but also the going into different forums and, and being there. Listening to what's happening, understanding the conversations that are happening and then digesting that and feeding that back through to leaders so they have an appreciation and understanding. 'cause a lot of, a lot of times the people at the top don't actually really know what's going on through the organisation and because of the various issues around.

That happen in organisations. Think about, say, internal politics or internal positioning, all that sort of stuff. The information is filtered through to the leaders so they don't see enough of it. So if they can get that, if they can understand more of [00:29:00] that, then they're always in a better position to make better decisions themselves as well.

Mel: It sounds like part of this, as you said, the curiosity mindset, I love 'cause curiosity is one of my. My biggest values. I love being curious.

Zora: Me too. I've got curiosity.

Mel: Yes. Yeah. Uh, but also, uh, I think it's sort of going to yourself, okay, well what value am I adding to that person? Mm. And demonstrating that value beyond the copywriting monkey. Like what is the value that you, you can bring and like you said, the voice on the ground, you can bring, uh, the, you know, the listening ear, the, insights that they might not have from all the things that you have access to. And that's one of the brilliant things about I think being in a comms team in an organisation certainly I've found, is you do tend to have that helicopter view of what's going on, uh, around the organisation.

Zora: You do.

Mel: And that's so valuable. Uh, the num, I've lost time count of the number of times I've told a team over here, did you know that [00:30:00] team over here is doing the same thing or similar or, it's also got a big change happening at that point and. You know, being able to connect them.

Zora: It's interesting how, if you think about which roles have got the helicopter view, you know, it will be communication, it should be people and culture.

Um, it's probably, it should be someone like you would think strategy maybe. Mm-hmm. But per, perhaps not. Um, there will definitely be people who are in those shared services roles. Mm-hmm. If there is an office of CEO get to know the office of CEO.

And that's the other thing that if, if communication professionals are going to move away from being the message makers, get the business - step into the business, understand how it works and why it works the way it works, and understand the market that it's in, and what's happening in the market, what are the competitors doing?[00:31:00]

What are the things that could impact, what are the things outside of the sector that can impact the sector and where it could potentially shift? Because what we're seeing now is an environment where you've got so much change happening so quickly. That strategy, for example, isn't necessarily going to, isn't necessarily that three to five year horizon all the time.

Mm. It's, you know, what you're trying to achieve might be big and it's over there and everyone gets it. But that strategy in some cases is shifting every three months. Six months, yeah. 12 months. And you just shifting, shifting, shifting. Mm. And that is overwhelming and it's just exhausting.

Mel: Oh, totally. I'm exhausted just thinking about it. Yeah. Um, I have sort of my A, b, C of primary skills, I think comms people should have. So a is adaptability. And that's because, you know, obvious reasons. The world around us is constantly changing. But [00:32:00] even, you know, that presentation you'd worked on for weeks? Oh yeah. That's changing last minute. So, you know, and you just gotta, that's, you just gotta go with it.

Uh, but there's a technology piece around the adaptability as well. Hmm. Which is, you know, really hard to keep up with. It's getting harder. The other one is, the B is business acumen. Like you were talking about, getting into the business, knowing the trends. And the C for me is creativity, and that is about that innovative thinking, but also.

You know, we've gotta cut through a lot of noise these days. True. There's so much coming at people from every direction. You've got to think outside the box to actually get people to listen in the first place alone, understand what the strategy is or what this change is about and those sorts of things.

And I think that, you know, when you're overwhelmed sometimes I know I do it, I just go back into old habits because it's just, I can control that. It's easier, there's so much going on. Let's just tick a box and move on. Yeah. But then we're not moving the profession forward by doing that. [00:33:00] We're, we're putting ourselves back in this other box, which we are trying so hard to get ourselves out of.

At least that's how, that's my view of the world.

Zora: You look, you look at where the profession was in pandemic and it was elevated. Mm-hmm. And it's stepping back in some parts, in not all parts. In some parts, at the senior level, it's growing, but at that middle and lower levels, it's not. Yeah, so I, I question if the, those within the profession, um, at those, uh, lower and mid-tier levels are being given the, um, l and d opportunities and that they need to be given, are they being stretched enough?

And moved across into different types of roles, not just in communication, but outside of communication. So they can actually develop the, the capabilities that they need. Because if you think about what type of [00:34:00] professional is going to thrive in a AI enabled world, it's not the, um, the specialist, no. It's, you know, the T-shaped person, you know, who's got a breadth of... capability, experience, and knowledge; has got specialty in a particular area, but can be adaptable across a breadth of different areas and being able to contribute to the business, then they become more valuable.

Mel: Mm-hmm. Big time. Mm-hmm. Uh, one last question before we go into our, uh, wrap up. Uh, I'd love to know when and where will we see the results of this research?

Zora: Oh yes.

Mel: 'cause my curiosity is piqued!

Zora: Our, our aim is to have it ready late November, so give or take week or two. Uh, so yeah, around then there is actually so much in it that it's like a year's worth of content almost. [00:35:00] Um. 'cause there is so much there and the focus is on, it is strategic alignment, but it's alignment and it's leadership. Yeah, communication is in there, but it's alignment and leadership because that's become really obvious that if you don't shift the leadership. You're in trouble. And I mean, you need to have that alignment really working well at the top.

Otherwise, whatever you do through the organisation from an alignment perspective doesn't work.

Mel: Mm-hmm. Oh, I'm excited even just to get to the, I've got some of the highlights today, so I feel very privileged now.

Zora: You're the first.

Mel: Oh, look out. Okay. Exclusive. Uh, we have three questions we ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those?

Zora: Yes, go for it.

Mel: Yes, of course you are. What is one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned, and how did it change the way you approach communication?

Zora: Uh, be curious. So [00:36:00] it's, yeah, be curious, ask questions. Um, listen, learn from other people. Constantly look outside of your field to look for trends, innovations.

Just things that could spark, um, your curiosity, your creativity to do something a bit different so you can stand out.

Mel: Love it. Question number two, what is one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

Zora: It would be listening to understand, not listening to respond.

Mel: Yes. I'm so glad you said that because it is something that a few people have, uh, said similarly before, but I think it definitely, in the context of what we've been talking about today with alignment, it just makes so much sense... because if you're just listening to respond at a leadership level, you are never gonna be aligned.

Third and final question, who do you turn to for communication [00:37:00] advice? Uh.

Zora: This is interesting. There is a brains trust. Mm-hmm. So, uh, I can naturally say, you know, the Brains trust is in IABC. Uh, there are so many people within IABC that I would turn to. Um, uh, I would say people like, um, Shell Holts, uh, Bonnie Caver, uh, Sia Papageorgiou.

Yeah, a variety. So there's, there's a whole range of people. People that, you know.

Mel: Yeah, I think it's one of those things for me at least, I get different things from different people and it's never just one person. There's, you know, if I'm thinking about how do I craft this particular strategic piece and show alignment, okay, let me tap Zora on the shoulder. If I'm thinking about capability building, we're gonna go chat to Adrian or you know, whoever it might be to try and bring in some of those insights.

And we are very lucky to have that. [00:38:00] Amazing network of people.

Zora: We, we have an amazing network. I mean, the people I've met through IABC, some are in IABC now and some aren't.

Mel: Okay. Amazing. Well, Zora, if people wanna get in touch with you, find out more about you, the work that you do, what's the best way for them to do that?

Zora: Um, I think I'm the only Zora Artis on LinkedIn. So that's, that's, that's the simplest, the quickest way to do it. Find me there.

Mel: So Zora, thank you so much for your time on Less Chatter, More Matter today

Zora: thank you. I really appreciate it.